Y'all don't know how HARD it was to break up that thread from the original topic,...but it had to be done, I think! But let's continue. I will rely on all of you to remember EVERYTHING that's been said before.......

MatthewDay,...
Thanks, man!!

"There is no spoon!"
Neo learned how to "bend" the rules in The Matrix... Jesus also was a rule "bender!" There are so many examples that come to mind... one that sticks out the most is when Jesus walked on water!!! There are so many others...

Matt: [and I’m not disagreeing, just amplifying] In “The Last Temptation of Christ,” there’s a scene where Jesus is asked if God changed his mind [re: the message to turn the other cheek rather than seeking an eye for an eye] and Jesus replies, “No. He just felt like your hearts were ready for more.”

Maybe Neo was actually unbending the rules to conquer illusion... to establish that new order.

[hmm... this sounded a lot better before I put it into words]

The Matrix as Messiah Movie:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html
[a direct link... I second MD's comments to you]

Hey, gang,....

This is from an e-mail I just got. Thought I would share with everybody:

We have to learn to fight with spiritual armor -
like it says in Ephesians 6: Put on the full armor of God because we are
not battling men, we are battling the evil forces of this world, and we
need the full armor so that we can stand.
The shield of faith, the sword - - the word of God, belt of truth,
******plate of righteousness. . .
Like all the different programs he had to get into his head, and because he
was humble enough that he never thought he was the ONE, he was the ONE.
I pictured, on those bullets that stood in mid air - all the demons I have
- insecurity, greed, selfishness, fear, and imagined that they have killed
me and held me back my whole life cause I ddin't see that they were'nt real
--- so, I tried to see them as bullets in mid-air one morning during my
quiet time with God, and prayed that I could stop each one, that he would
give me the strength to see it and make it fall to the ground. . . .
I cannot tell you how that moved my walk with God -- That I was very
insulted by my boss that day, and had to try to keep from smiling cause
every word he said came right to the edge of my heart and I saw it stop,
and fall to the ground -- I now have a weapon to fight with God. . .

I know it is a little out there, but wow! It really has changed my
insides. . .

Incredible, huh?!
Cecil

cecilc - not out there at all with Eph 6. I put on my full armor everyday... been doing it for a couple of months. I also intercede for people who are not able to put it on themselves and put it on for them.

-Sandals of Peace
-Helmet of Salvation
-Belt of Truth
-Sword of the Spirit (prayer)
-******plate of Righteousness
-Shield of Faith

Interesting parallel comparing armor/computer programs!!! I have seen it twice. I may see it again... I feel there is so much more there...

I live at thematrix.acmecity.com/mission117

People who live outside the law must live within the law. How's that for bending and unbending rules?

Example: a professional thief is a criminal and therefore lives outside of the laws of this country. To keep from drawing attention to himself, he lives completely within the law by obeying them to the letter. He doesn't break speed limits, he pays all his bills on time, etc.

In our own ways, we all bend laws (physically and spiritually) and many times claim they are unbent.

-Sword of the Spirit (prayer)-

Without trying to turn this into a sermon, the emphasis, IMHO, in Ephesians 6 is that it's God's armor and we must consciously decide to wear all of it. Otherwise we WILL fail against principalities and powers, etc.

Translating the second part of the above to The Matrix; Neo knew he could bend/break some of the rules, but until he understood ALL that he could do, the Agents always had the upper hand.

Hello everyone! I have been reading the posts here and at "image & met" since April 5th. I'm just barely making my first post so if I tend to repeat old news, please forgive me. (By the way, I am a bible college student at Christ for the Nations Institute, Dallas!) have seen this movie four times already, my first time being April 3rd. . . my birthday!

I think that Neo's first encounters with typing on his computer screen and phone calls which lead him to Morpheus are very comparable with the way that God draws us to Himself via the Holy Spirit (still small voice). Notice that the first time Neo disobeys "the Spirit" He is taken captive by the enemy.

On the Oracle---
1) The vase is a type of the law. Think about what she said.

". . .and don't worry about the vase.
"What vase?"

**CRASH**

"That vase."
"I'm sorry."
"I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it. What's really going to bake your noodle later is--- Would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything."

This demonstrates that when God gave us the law, He knew fully well that it was going to break it. It is not possible to break a law without first being made aware of it. It also demonstrates that even though we break the law, God has already got provision prepared to fix what we, as human beings, inevitably mess up.

2) Neo as a type of passover lamb/type of Christ.

The Oracle inspected Neo's body in the same fasion that a Priest at the Temple would inspect the passover lamb. (I am still contemplating this theory)

3) Oatmeal cookies

This is out on a limb, but could the cookie have been a type of firstfruits offering to Neo?

and---
4) Did anyone else notice that all of the rest of the potentials were children?
"Unless you become as little children. . ."

I havn't seen anything about the dove in the, "woman in the red dress scene". When Morpheus asks Tank to freeze the program there is a dove positioned in a perfect posture to "light upon" Neo's head. This seemed to be one of the coolest and most obvious types in the whole movie.

Speaking of the woman in the red dress, It was because Mouse was distracted by a photograph of his own "graven image" that he didn't even notice that the agents had set up a wall to prevent escape. See what happens when we are disobedient? We endanger ourselves as well as the people around us.

The "Matrix" is obviously a type of the world while the "Real world" is a type of the spririt realm.

Sometimes Tank was a type of the Holy Spirit, equipping the "saints" with whatever gift was neccessary in any given situation.

It wasn't until after Neo had taken "strong drink" from Cypher that Cypher began to cause Neo to question and doubt what Morpheus had said. Satan is still using them same tactics today tha he used in the garden. "Did God really say. . ."

The engraving on the ship that titled it the "Nebuchadnezzar" also said, "Mark 3:13"

At one point Neo says, "Jesus", and Trinity responds, "What?".
At another he says, "God", and she responds with another, "What?".

And now, for my inquiries

1) Tank said "The captain of EACH SHIP is given codes to Zion's mainframe." What other ships?

2) What is the metaphorical value of the killing in this movie? I believe that this issue demands a good solid answer.

3) What is with all the shell casings. I'm sure that they are a piece of the answer to the mass homicide puzzle.

4) If this movie is truly intended to glorify The King, (Which I firmly believe it does!), then why all the blasphemies?

Some comments on the full circle theme;

1) The movie begins and ends in room 303 of the Heart O' the City Hotel.

2) Morpheus is captured in the same building where he and Neo met.

3) Is the office building Where Morpheus is held captive the same one that Neo was employed at?

Sorry for the extremely long post, I just had a lot to say.

-------------------
". . .The Matrix cannot tell you who you are."

This movie is BEEFY!

Hey, OnFyre4God (great name, by the way!)...

First, Happy Birthday!
Secondly,...for a 1st post, you make a pretty impressive entrance! :-)

Nice pick up on the vase thing - I don't remember hearing that one before. It's a nice fit.

And the dove scene?...I think that one flew by everyone - I don't even remember it! Good job!

You know, Mike Skocko (12321) brought up the violence metaphor a looooooong time ago, but to my knowledge nobody ever had an answer or even a theory about it. But it would be very hard to imagine that it DIDN'T mean anything!

Anyway, man, that's a great post - lots of good ideas!

OnFyre4God: Wow! You've drawn some nice parallels, many of which I haven't seen metioned yet. Glad to have you in on this discussion! I agree with you and cecilc that the violence metaphor needs be addressed more fully.

Extending your idea about Neo typing at the keyboard: Somewhere it is mentioned in the film that Neo has been searching for Morpheus for the last couple of years, while Morpheus has been searching for Neo his whole life. If we view Neo as the person rather than the One, and Morpheus as God the Father, we have a nice metaphor for the relationship between God and man. God desires to have a relationship with us, from before we were born even. He is reaching out to us our whole lives.

When we seek God, he will reveal himself to us. "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened..." Notice how Morpheus first contacted Neo (through Trinity, the Spirit) rather than the other way around. This was done via the computer screen when Neo is first introduced. "Wake up, Neo! The Matrix has you!" Translated, "wake up, sin has you!" God reaches out to us first.

It is interesting that this scene is followed by "Knock, knock...", then the door to Neo's apartment is opened. This moment is critical because the invitation is extended to Neo to join the group, and thus "follow the white rabbit." It is this decision that paves the way for Neo to eventually establish a relationship with Morpheus. When Christ knocks on the door to our hearts, he follows with an invitation to "follow him"! If we do, we will enter into a relationship with the Father.

Just a start...I am sure this train of thought can be developed further!

Hey guys!

woohoo! part2! Well anyway as far as the violence goes I don't necessarily think it's a metaphorical thing. Sure it's a fight against the principalities, the rulers...but I think for the most part it's there because the wachowski bros not only wanted to makle a smart inteligent peice of art but also a movie that would draw those action-oriented what does drama and metaphor mean type of people.

As far as the dove goes, I'm going to check that out right now, sounds intruiging and I'll get right back to ya on it.

ok need new quote

ok i'm back

I just checked out the dove scene, well there are a couple of shots where the dove does sit right over neo's shoulder, it might be stretching it but they're probably not in there for no reason (there are two of them, plus it might just be to emphasize the freeze frame effect)...I must say you can't get enough of this movie, kind of expensive to see it three times but hey matinees are cheap. I've read about a guy who's seen it 11 times already!

Been thinking about the agent "possession" issue. The agents "took over" their host, usually an innocent bystander, resulting in the host's subsequent death on most occasions. Anyone care to touch on this?

Miracles and Wonders! There’s no stopping this conversation now. [and there’s no way to acknowledge and respond to every wonderful observation. But I read everything -- repeatedly. You’re all amazing!

----- ----- -----

A long time ago in a thread far far away...

[in response to a friend’s lamenting the need for romance of any type in the film... and thus a perceived opening to begin to address the violence]

The kiss?
Had to happen.

The good/evil, man/woman dynamic had to be played out. The primary conflict in this genre is easily recognized and resolved: Two sharply defined, diametrically opposed groups battle until a single victor emerges. The traditional reward for such a champion is, of course, the woman. Duality demands specific roles for its archetypal players or the audience might recognize the inherent flaws in such perceptual prisons...

My goodness. Did I say that out loud? Pedantic speech and repetition of form often numbs the listener’s higher faculties. Perhaps you’ll still be able to accept the premise that good and evil always engage in physical conflict. Mortal combat is the means by which these dilemmas must be resolved and your champions crowned. The destruction of evil then leaves a void that must be filled. The kiss represents renewal of the species. The glorious act of procreation. Then blissful post-coital peace. That is your reward. And notice, you’ve already forgotten what I said in the first paragraph.

----- ----- -----

Sorry ‘bout casting you in such a role, heavensent1, but this nonsense needs to be brought into the light. The violence in The Matrix is nothing but a metaphor. A powerful, action-packed, testosterone-drenched metaphor. Can you possibly imagine a better counter-metaphor than that single, tender, ressurective encounter?

Ressurective? If it’s not a word, it should be. Neo was dead. Battles fought and lost with guns, guns, and more guns [with a fist-fight or two thrown in to demonstrate another primitive means to an end] until this moment. Violence lead to Neo’s death. Guns were used to kill humans, never agents. The act bought precious moments and nothing more. The kiss, and all it represents was the redemptive act. If Eve gets stuck with the blame, then Trinity deserves the credit.

Love worked the miracle. Love wrought the victory.

Dang. I was gonna do this back at my site. Oh well, it needed saying. [Plus there’s a lot that got left out] Gotta run.

This’s incomplete, but I hope it still makes some kind of sense.

----- ----- -----

Incomplete is right! But hey, it’s a start.

Tracer, I've also been thinking a lot about the symbolism of "spiritual warfare" in the movie. The more I think about it the more I lean towards the idea that in the movie the Matrix represents reality and the real world represents the spiritual realm. Several reasons for this conclusion...

- The masses are "asleep" in the real world. It was only by Neo's search and his choice that he was awakened and "unplugged" from the Matrix and the truth was revealed to Him.

- While the agents are trying to "break" Morpheous one of them says,"Why isn't it working?" I see this as a tribute to the power of prayer in the spiritual realm - Tank takes a wet towel and soothes Morpheous and talks to him. I am convinced this is the only reason Morpheous doesn't "break."

I feel the violence is just symbolic of the battles that we face each day.

Ephesians 6:16

In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

In the movie, the flaming arrows are represented by bullets!

Brothers and Sisters in Christ-
What are the flaming arrows Satan is throwing at you??? In Christ Jesus we have the power to overcome every flaming arrow that is thrown our way!!!

So am I to believe here that
ya'll think Neo was a metaphor for jesus
and that he and only he could be the one?

What about the ending when he says he is going to show you a world with you...
???

I hypothisize
that the next step in the story is that you have Neo teach other Matrixites & ex-pats
how to achieve Neo-hood...

imagine an army of Neos
the matrix doesn't stand a chance...

you'll end up with an infinity
of infinitely unbounded beings....

MAx

Max, Neo doesn't say "...a world with you..." Actually, Max, Neo's speech at the end of the movie goes like this:

"I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders and boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from here is a choice I leave to you."

And for the first section of your post, the answer is "Yes!" (NOT maybe!)

MatthewDay: Very perceptive! I think you are on to something here. In fact, I believe there are elements of truth to both frames of reference. There are certainly additional gems to be discovered if we focus on the film from the point of view you suggest.

Layers upon layers upon layers...

Max Q: The point of confusion seems to emanate from one misplaced reference frame... Neo’s speech, as quoted by acrobat, is NOT directed at the people in the movie -- it’s spoken to the AIs. [who trace and monitor all calls]

Notice how Neo says, “I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see.

Isn’t that the clincher?

This discussion was generated by the movie’s relationship to the Book -- not the other way around. In the movie, the characters search for The One who can set them free, right? That they help him gives meaning and purpose to the human drama, the human adventure. We’re part of a team. It’s exciting.

Does this make sense?

As much as there is in the way of thoughts about this or that
perspective of the movie and it's parts, here is a thought perhaps
needing to be considered.

First, did all these things others see, where they thought of and intentionally
incorporated? Or was there just a base line of honesty from which so many
perspectives can evolve from?

And if the second is true, then where is the dividing line between what is red
and what is blue?

Start with a base line and evolve out many things, some red and some blue.

How much have we done this in our history already? What is red and what is blue?

Perhaps it's knowing the base line and that you have a choice of what you evolve
out from it.

With such a mix of red and blue, over time of many evolutions out, what we get is
purple. Never really sure about what is red or what is blue.

Funny but all the Exit signs in the movie are green!

Interesting poetry 3Seas, although the peotry I like best follows a more...umm...simple pattern (I make an exception for yeats)

MichaelH,...

Oh,.....My,.....God! Thank you!!!

Regarding MichaelH's very dramatic post!

I'm heartened to see that I'm not the only one with a two value system.
Right - Wrong
Black - White
Eternity - Death
Yes - No

Did you notice - there are no "maybe"'s in that post. No "gray" areas!

Carry on, soldier!

Pardon the interruption, but just in case you're interested, a semi-accurate copy of the script can be found at:

http://members.xoom.com/tridave/matrix.htm

Look in the info section.

Say cecilc

did you read my last response didn't find an answer. Just curious what you thought?

Somewhere there is a line. In your head. Some who fight on one sid ethink they are on the other. But so is the way of the way.

> > >
1) Tank said "The captain of EACH SHIP is given codes to Zion's mainframe." What other ships?
< < <

Us. We are the other ships! :-)

> > >
2) What is the metaphorical value of the killing in this movie? I believe that this issue demands a good solid answer.
< < <

You have to speak to the masses in a language they understand. I think this is classified as a necessary evil. Think of the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector praying at the altar... one says, "I have tithed twice this week and thank God I'm not like the heathen;" and the other says, "Forgive me Lord, for I am a sinner." I think you know how this one ends.

> > >
3) What is with all the shell casings. I'm sure that they are a piece of the answer to the mass homicide puzzle.
< < <

You're reading too much into it now. I think they probably just wanted to make some cool CG. I mean, this is quite a stretch to find
metaphorical value there.

> > >
4) If this movie is truly intended to glorify The King, (Which I firmly believe it does!), then why all the blasphemies?
< < <

See the answer to (2).

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

MichaelH...AWESOME insight!!! Thank you!!!

MichaelH: You already know what I think. [smile]

----- ----- -----

Matt: On unbending the rules.

The one thing Neo, Jesus, and the rest of us have in common is the world we live in. You know, something’s really out of whack. When the agent spoke to Neo about leading two separate lives...

Maybe I should start at the beginning.

Genesis 1: Well, you know.
Genesis 2: If at first you don’t succeed...
[I expect heat from this one. Feel free to fire away.]

Point is, there seems to be two stories running through the Bible. Like Neo’s two lives, Jesus had his own torn curtain to deal with. [oh-oh, I’m getting ahead of myself] The Torah [the first five books of the Bible] is jammed with rules. You already know he bent, broke, or, to some of the faithful, profaned many of these rules. Question is, why?

To the Jewish folk who studied the Word, nothing was more sacred than the Torah. This isn’t just inspired, this is the Word as dictated to Moses BY GOD HIMSELF. This is straight from the Source. [man, the tangents to follow at this point...]

Whether or not you accept the two world idea, you’ll probably have no trouble with agreeing that getting tossed out of Eden was bad news for A & E [and their kids] so God works to try and help ‘em fix the mess. Fast forward to Jesus. Kazantzakis’ Jesus says that God felt their hearts were ready for more. You buy that?

What was Jesus up to if he wasn’t trying to restore order? The Torah contains tough rules for a tough time, but they’re God’s rules. If you can handle Kazantzakis’ explanation, it should follow that the original rules had been bent by God to fit the twisted state of humanity 3,300 years ago. He’s got a plan, right? He needed someone to help with the unbending. The Kid says, “I’ll do it, Dad!”

[Augh! This feels so scattered] Jesus advised following some rules [like paying taxes and loving everyone] and ignoring others [like eating only certain things or taking an eye for an eye or walking on water] for a reason. It may sound like semantics, but if the world’s really out of whack, so are our frames of reference.

Bending, unbending, what’s the difference?
A world of difference, my friends, a world of difference.

----- ----- -----

If this makes no sense, please say so. It’s part of a much larger picture. Kinda important to get this straight. Sweet dreams, all.

3seas wrote:
> > >
Overall - I think people are reading a good bit more into the religious aspect then is there.
< < <

"Then is there" is improper English. Also, we are not discussing the "religious aspect" of the movie; we are discussing our own spiritual experiences of it, overall.

> > >
I suppose this is natural because it's what people have been trained/programed to look for.
< < <

I disagree very strongly with this statement. First of all, "natural" has nothing to do with my spiritual experience of The Matrix. I never went to church as a kid and my father is a scientist. I take everything in my outer and inner life in as objective and real a way as possible. Therefore I think that you sir, have a rather poor grasp on reality if you have decided to contend that The Matrix is not permeated with esoteric meaning.

> > >
That's the purple!
< < <

More like brown.

> > >
I.E. read the April 96 script and you'll see the oracle was somthing not to trust, an illusion
to get past. Like the woman in the red dress (which is not in that script).
< < <

Then actual intentions of the filmmaker, and anything else, are completely unrelated to this discussion! Don't you get it? Those things are all things that are out in the outside world, the "unreal world" -- The Matrix if you will. We are almost *soley* concerned with our own internal experiences of this film, and how in an uncanny way it describes, parable style, the coming of a messiah. Whether you are *willing* to open your MIND to this possibility, is up to YOU. Get it?

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

Shadrach, I looked at you profile and web page.

How come it don't fit, or that it does.

So free your mind. I gotta whole lotta improper english.



Besides: doya really think there are enough angels to serve everyone who goes to heaven?
And who's gonna serve the angels? The Matrix?

Free you mind, ignorane is bliss.

3seas:
> > >
Besides: doya really think there are enough angels to serve everyone who goes to heaven?
And who's gonna serve the angels? The Matrix?

Free you mind, ignorane is bliss.
< < <

"Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Don't you GET IT?? I guess you're just playing dumb to push my buttons, so to speak -- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. I guess, it's just that I find it hard to believe that after the teachings of Christ have been around for 2000 years, and now there are films like the Matrix to help us understand our situation on this planet, that there are still people who think "heaven" is somewhere you go after you die.

3seas wrote:
> > >
Overall - I think people are reading a good bit more into the religious aspect then is there.
< < <

"Then is there" is improper English. Also, we are not discussing the "religious aspect" of the movie; we are discussing our own spiritual experiences of it, overall.

> > >
I suppose this is natural because it's what people have been trained/programed to look for.
< < <

I disagree very strongly with this statement. First of all, "natural" has nothing to do with my spiritual experience of The Matrix. I never went to church as a kid and my father is a scientist. I take everything in my outer and inner life in as objective and real a way as possible. Therefore I think that you sir, have a rather poor grasp on reality if you have decided to contend that The Matrix is not permeated with esoteric meaning.

> > >
That's the purple!
< < <

More like brown.

> > >
I.E. read the April 96 script and you'll see the oracle was somthing not to trust, an illusion
to get past. Like the woman in the red dress (which is not in that script).
< < <

Then actual intentions of the filmmaker, and anything else, are completely unrelated to this discussion! Don't you get it? Those things are all things that are out in the outside world, the "unreal world" -- The Matrix if you will. We are almost *soley* concerned with our own internal experiences of this film, and how in an uncanny way it describes, parable style, the coming of a messiah. Whether you are *willing* to open your MIND to this possibility, is up to YOU. Get it?

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

"I know exactly what you mean.
Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there,
like a splinter in your mind driving you mad.

It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?"

Yes Morpheus I do
and I would say that it came down to the feeling I had by those who say this world was created by one being and that only this one being is responsible for its creation....

Acrobat
12321
What you took as my ignorance was my lack of proof reading....
Neo is going to show them the AI
a world without them and that means teaching the MATRIXITES how to assume the viewpoint of a maker and un-maker of games; The Matrix as a metaphor for the physical realm, IS a co-created universe. Only by taking responsiblity for it could Neo overcome the trap of the game he was in. The physical realm is the same trap. We created it. You and me, right now and for the last few eternities...

Only by each of us becoming the one
can we ever think to return to native state and reclaim the universe of self
in its infinite glorious state...

2 values logic
states that there are absolutes which are not demonstratable IN THIS UNiverse...yes there maybe be absolutes in a place outside of place
BUT here it is a gradient scale of rightnesses and wrongnesses...

What I did yesterday to help myself survive may help me again today BUT tomorrow
it might be less survival for me to do so...
In a 2 valued logic system
the same survival thing
IS
always survival
this is not true...

Yes I agree that there is right and wrong and good and evil
but to say there is only 2 answers in any given case is not a demonstatable datum in this universe....

Don't forget kids!
Don't Floss
AND
consume trace programs
at the same time....
It can cause endless embarrasment
and is really hard on those bathroom mirrors!

Max
I KNOW KUNG-FU! Inc.
Endless supplier of red pills
to the off-planet government
and the Natural Guard...

You're hypnotized by a machine right now.

Could you NOT think about "The Matrix" for the next week, especially if you 'consciously' decided to not?

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

MaxQ wrote:
> > >
The Matrix as a metaphor for the physical realm, IS a co-created universe. Only by taking responsiblity for it could Neo overcome the trap of the game he was in. The physical realm is the same trap. We created it. You and me, right now and for the last few eternities...
< < <

Yes you are correct. One must of course be a doer of the path, and not merely a knower of it -- as Morpheus said right before I had to run to the bathroom because I was struck by a state of self-remembering and non-identification so intense that ... well heck, I can't hardly remember how it felt nor explain it, primarily because at that moment I was in a higher state of consciousness than I am now and so it is literally impossible for me to remember! :-)

Everything else you said is RIGHT ON. Have you ever read anything written about or by G.I. Gurdjieff or P.D. Ouspensky? All of you should definitely investigate these individuals. I will soon provide some U.R.L.'s to check out re: those men. Also, there is a band by the name of Course of Empire which to me, is so far ahead of its time that its ridiculous. I urge to to check out their C.D. "Telepathic Last Words." Listen to this C.D. just after going to see The Matrix, and you will begin to ask yourself very deeply WHY this music is unpopular and WHY you have never heard of it before. :-) B.T.W., the track "The Information" from this C.D. was featured on the soundtrack to the film Dark City, which before The Matrix and The Thin Red Line was the most "awakened" film I had seen.

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

Hey, Sampson,....
Finally found your last post in the first thread......

“God created Satan, Satan is evil yada yada...You say god nor man is responsible for evil just Satan Clause.” Sampson,....I never said that Satan is evil! (please reread the post if you have to! If you’re going to challenge something I said, make sure I said it first!) So let’s not equate God creating Satan with God creating evil. No, no, no. As far as I kno1w (and I wasn’t a witness!) Satan was a beautiful creation of God - I think the problem was that Satan started to believe his own press about how beautiful and smart he was and thought he could put himself on the same level as God. It was HIS choice to rebel and sin against God (there’s that freedom of choice thing again!) I see a lot of that same kind of thinking even today, Sampson,...in the “New Age” type religions that teach us that we’re such an intelligent species that we can “be as God”. My personal opinion is that they are headed for the same downfall as Satan.

Responsibility for your actions isn’t suspended or abolished just because you believe in God. We are all responsible to God for everything we do - and God WILL hold us up to that responsibility. So please don’t equate belief in God with irresponsibility - it won’t fit! If anything, God teaches us to try to be MORE responsible for our actions.

Sampson, I liked what you said about being reborn and ego having to die. My opinion? It’s this world that is the illusion - this world is finite in nature. I’m personally looking to the INFINITE......and I’ve decided I want to be a part of that infinity,....that eternity. You know,...even before I became a Christian, I always wondered why God would create us just for 80 or 90 years of existence. The answer (or my answer): He doesn’t. He creates us as eternal beings, but He lets us choose whether or not we WANT to be eternal.

Look, man, I’m not bashing you or your belief system (I don’t even know what they ARE!). Your experiences lead you to your beliefs, just as my experiences have lead me to mine. That’s the way it’s always going to be. You know, just from reading the rest of your post, Sampson, it seems to me that you believe in some aspects of God and the Bible but then there are some concepts or ideas that you have trouble accepting. Am I reading you right on that? And if I do read you correctly on that, and your mind is not closed off, then our dialog has really just started, hasn’t it??!

Shadrach,

DEJA 'VU

oye

god omnipotent omni etc...
he made satan with the potential to become what he did. Unlike me who could screw up and hurt someone by mistake God can't.

Yes god and believing in god can make you more responsible. and it usually does great things for people. Some people need. But at somepoint as yee agree we do a final ribirth and this part u will disagree with likely is that at that point we will release our belief in any god. It has helped us get to a point... then there is beyond that point. through the last door into infinity.

Then maybe you will realize that the I AM that i was talking about before is actually you. and you are. We are all on a journey to this place and will all find it before infinity is up. This is where i disagree with the bible again. This stuff about an infinite heaven and hell.
If i loved you and that love was pure then I would never judge u. I would be forced to let you run around creating your own problems hurting yourself. Hell... is that
I would try to show you the door out of this but you hjave to choose as we both agree.

My God will never judge me. I hope yours doesn't judge you

As for 80 or 90 years. I'm glad you see past that. You gotta deal with the crap you do for longer than that.

Myself i believe in reincarnation. The bible is dificult to read and see that it agrees with this also but i believe it does.

Yes i do think our discusion is just getting on a role. The most important thing is that we are both willing to talk and listen.

oye

god omnipotent omni etc...
he made satan with the potential to become what he did. Unlike me who could screw up and hurt someone by mistake God can't.

Yes god and believing in god can make you more responsible. and it usually does great things for people. Some people need. But at somepoint as yee agree we do a final ribirth and this part u will disagree with likely is that at that point we will release our belief in any god. It has helped us get to a point... then there is beyond that point. through the last door into infinity.

Then maybe you will realize that the I AM that i was talking about before is actually you. and you are. We are all on a journey to this place and will all find it before infinity is up. This is where i disagree with the bible again. This stuff about an infinite heaven and hell.
If i loved you and that love was pure then I would never judge u. I would be forced to let you run around creating your own problems hurting yourself. Hell... is that
I would try to show you the door out of this but you hjave to choose as we both agree.

My God will never judge me. I hope yours doesn't judge you

As for 80 or 90 years. I'm glad you see past that. You gotta deal with the crap you do for longer than that.

Myself i believe in reincarnation. The bible is dificult to read and see that it agrees with this also but i believe it does.

Yes i do think our discusion is just getting on a role. The most important thing is that we are both willing to talk and listen.

Well, good morning everyone!

Max Q: In response to your post [on 04-18-99 04:36 AM] in Imagery and Metaphor I asked, [04-18-99 07:56 AM] after some preamble, “What’s your take on the Neo as Messiah hypothesis? Could it be real enough [in your estimation] to explore, even if only as a thought experiment?” Is this your answer? [no anger, no accusing finger pointed your way, just one artist to another -- I’m really curious]

shadrach [re: 04-20-99 11:37 PM post]: “Also, we are not discussing the ‘religious aspect’ of the movie; we are discussing our own spiritual experiences of it, overall.” Thank you. “[The] actual intentions of the filmmaker...are completely unrelated to this discussion! ...We are almost [solely] concerned with our own internal experiences of this film, and how in an uncanny way it describes, parable style, the coming of a messiah...” That gets pretty close to my feelings too.

Matt: Kinda. There’s just too many references in the Book to the perceptual distortions in this place. It’s almost as if the world outside of Eden was like one of those bendy fun house mirrors. God didn’t bend us. We didn’t bend us. It was that doorway... the transition from Eden to this world...

I saw Pleasantville on an airline. In it, Jeff Daniel’s character is shown an art book. The first picture he’s shown is Massaccio’s “Expulsion from the Garden of Eden.” I’d written a long inspired paper on this painting for an Art History course. One factor hadn’t struck me until a moment ago -- although not shown, I think God was mourning the loss even more deeply that Adam and Eve. He knew what they didn’t.

An unwise choice led to the separation, but it was the separation itself that bent perception, us, and the rules. Does this make sense?

----- ----- -----

Everyone: Click the SUBMIT REPLY button once. Open a second window and check. The reply will be there.

12321,

The click Submit Reply button only once is a good thing to remind people of.

However, let's not get this confused with intentional posting of a repeat. Such as after
a response and another response, then the repeat.

Deja 'Vu requires a gap between the original and the repeat? For the effect to be felt,
otherwise it's just a plain loop, nothing changed. What is changed is the addition of more
information before the repeat.

Also the disconnected from the creators (film producers) flow in exploring this thread,
will it become a double standard?

Meaning will it be claimed that I'm disconnected from the film on things I've been
communicating and that's not OK, but here the disconnection is OK because it's someone
else?

Lets' see! This disconnection here is a personal thing, in that it's to explore how this
movie reflects in each one of us.