Author Topic:   The Matrix as Messiah Movie Book IV
cecilc
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posted 05-03-99 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

When I start seeing postings in triplicate (not to mention quads!), it's time to open up a new section.

Welcome to Book IV of The Matrix as Messiah Movie,......

Unbelievable!

Cecil

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12321
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posted 05-03-99 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Yeah, it was almost 200K.
Lots of unanswered questions in all three threads. [remember to look back, gang]

You planted in rich soil, Cecil. [or is it that my posts are fertilizer?]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-03-99 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Here are the previous thread links:

For the original thread:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html

For Part II: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000750.html

For Part III: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000806.html

And for Book IV: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000930.html

Don't let those trains of thought get derailed!

Cecil

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12321
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posted 05-03-99 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Um, Cecil?
Part III:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000855.html

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-03-99 04:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Hey, gang,....

My mistake! Sorry!

Mike's got the correct http address for Part 3.....again, my apologies!

Fertilizer, Mike????????? Try the sun, my friend!!!

Cecil

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OnFyre4God
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posted 05-03-99 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OnFyre4God   Click Here to Email OnFyre4God         

Hello Friends!

Once again, I must apologize for the infrequent posts. Lately I have noticed that this movie and all my thoughts about it have really been taking away from my time of devotion to the Lord. That is priority numero uno and I have concluded that this forum belongs way way down the list on my list of "productive ways to spend my time." Yet, I will drop in whenever I have absolutely nothing else to do. I must also apologize for the theological debate I started on this thread. As a final comment I would just like to clarify what I feel a few people have misunderstood about the way I interpret things. I am not attempting to use this movie to interpret the bible. It is very much the other way around. My goal is illustrate the truth using events from this movie. This movie, like anything created by men, is extemely fallible and many of it's themes are left undeveloped, like Cypher said:

Neo: Is that...
Cypher: The Matrix? Yeah.
Neo: Do you always look at it encoded?
Cypher: Well you have to. The image translators work for the construct program. But there's way too much information to decode the Matrix.

This movie must be looked at "in code" if we are ever going to "decode" it. Therefore there is a lot of room to interpret this movie from New Age, or any number of perspectives, regardless of the makers intent. My doctrine is not dictated by this movie! It is only illustrated in very limited ways through it! If anyone has questions about my theological perspective, feel free to e-mail me and I will be happy to discuss things with you. From this point forward I will refrain from posting anything irrelevent to the original topic in this forum.

cecilc: I have the utmost respect for you

And now. . . On With The Show!

I really don't have much to contribute today aside from this insight:

) Try reading the account of the defeat by, then victory over the city of Ai in Joshua. Some interesting parallels can be drawn to the Resistance vs A.I. conflict in the movie.

god of dreams: u r kewl!

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Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand!

Only One God

cecilc
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posted 05-03-99 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

OnFyre,...

The respect is mirrored!

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12321
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posted 05-03-99 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

A little more fuel for the Second Coming parallel:

Morpheus says. “After HE died the Oracle prophesied HIS return” [my emphasis]

Morpheus thinks Neo is the return of that original man. We think Neo is a Messiah figure -- an ACTION figure. Logic dictates we make the leap -- that we ACT on this information -- right?

Neo, according to Morpheus, “had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he [Neo] who freed the first of us, taught us the truth,” in a prior life.

Thoughts?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

tracer
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posted 05-03-99 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer         

This got posted in Part III just after Cecil split the thread, so I'll repeat it here just in case it was overlooked.

-------

12321: Thanks! Now I know the source of my deja vu.

cecilc: Much as I like to believe in "happy" endings, I have to agree with you on both counts. The AI sure didn't seem too tolerant of us ("you are a cancer..."), and human history is testimony to our nature. The realist in me aknowledges that the AI would probably refuse any such offer and humanity would never honor it anyway. But the thought sure is intriguing! And yes, if the Christ parallels are continued true to form, only one group will remain standing (and we know who that is!)

Any other thoughts on the science vs spiritual metaphor?

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"It's the question that drives us..."

Formula
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posted 05-03-99 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Formula   Click Here to Email Formula         

About the question earlier as to why I came here; after I saw the movie, I wanted to see what other people thought about it. I had noticed that something in the movie sparked a deeper kind of thinking in me. I wanted to see if that was something that happened in just me, or if more people felt the way I did. I was pleasantly surprised when I found out that others shared my thoughts. Although I did have some ideas as to what the film meant to me, and what it could mean if I let it, I never realized the possibilities until I began to read what was being said here. Thanks for your interest and kind welcome, all. I am limited on time, so I'll be off now.

12321
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posted 05-03-99 08:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Formula: Everyone who posts, everyone who takes a chance and hangs a piece of themselves out on the line with an honest thought/observation/question, is a hero.

Something amazing is happening here. An idea is approaching critical mass. Miracles and wonders...

Thanks to you and all.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

shadrach
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posted 05-03-99 11:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shadrach         

Although we have been overtly emphasizing a Judeo-Christian interpretation, at least for me this also includes all the heavy philosophical weight that said interpretation carries intrinsically. In other words, just because we haven't been mentioning Buddhism or Zen or various philisophical epistemologies, that doesn't mean they aren't necessarily implied by the Christian references. It just depends on how much credit you give to the average Christian, which from the sounds of it is (understandably) not a whole lot. There are those of us out here however that are rather promiscuous Christians, in the sense that we frequent other perspectives. Which is, of course, the cause of this forum. :-)

> > >
another subtext: Nietzschean.
i have heard that a lot of people dont like the way i fly off at the end of the flick. this is actually an allusion to Nietzsche (think
superman=ubermensch)
< < <

Of course, Nietzsche's "superman" is like Descarte's "workman;" the concept of course being in the Fourth Meditation that if there exists an idea of the workman as a target for our being via evolution or transformation, then that idea (since it is *real* and could not have arisen from something lesser than itself, as a "stone would have to appear from a larger or greater stone") is necessarily the real, perfect being which supercedes our imperfection and necessitates "God" as the source of said idea.

I love the part where right after Neo takes the money for selling the optical disk he puts it into a hollowed-out copy of Nietzche's "Sim..". The first time I saw The Matrix and I noticed that happen, that was when I started to realize that this wasn't going to be just your everyday movie. :-)

god of dreams: Indeed, if the only spiritual vocabulary you know is the Judeo-Christian Bible etc., that's okay. The main thing is your daily experience of it. That's what a lot of people miss, is that they hear all the buzz words and immediately think that 'oh, these are just Christians blabbering,' and dismiss it and think that these people are closed minded. Likewise many Christians don't bother to try to see things from any other perspective, because they've found a way that works for them.

But it's just like with learning foreign languages, often you find that there are grammatical structures that do not exist in your native tongue which better describe certain things, so that even when you go back to speaking your first language, you have an added understanding of communicating.

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

my cup is empty

guigirl
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posted 05-03-99 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for guigirl   Click Here to Email guigirl         

there is no cup

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provoke, always provoke
| http://parasites.org

Sampson
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posted 05-04-99 06:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson         

OnFyr glad that ur back
Just cause we don't agree doesn't mean we can't get along

I was just thinking when I read that last post...
Does that mean we should look at this world in code?

I kinda think so
What kind of decoder are u using and who did u let program it?
Just something to think about

I have a cup...
Hmmm maybe I had one....
where did that go!
accept the inevitable or suffer the pain of disapearing cups...

Shadrach
I've always wanted to learn more languages for that exact reason

Sammy

nospoon3
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posted 05-04-99 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nospoon3   Click Here to Email nospoon3         

Shadrach: I am but a student in this place
That was great more please!!

Another voice...the disc was Nietzsche....wow way to watch the film!!

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There is no spoon

Welcome to the Desert of the Real

kyote
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posted 05-04-99 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyote   Click Here to Email kyote         

Perhaps the code that we all follow, although general, may be our own, our own Beleif Systems---which could be called BS. You know, all those experiences you've had in your life that stick with you even though you're not thinking about them...Even the ones that didn't necessarily happen to you- in a conscious state of mind..Or the things that your peers or families try to pund into your brain because it's "the normal thing to do', well I think we would all probably agree, there is no normal anymore........

- - -13- - -

Solucius
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posted 05-04-99 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solucius   Click Here to Email Solucius         

Dear cecilc

I have just posted a message in the "take this as you will" thread and realised that it probably should be included in this thread as well in regards to relating content.

In it I talk about the highjacking of both Jesus and Jehovah by other merchandisers out there and some reference to the film as well of course.

If anyone wants to run with it on this thread as well, I'm happy to play.

Hope you find it relevant, and can I say cecilc, What a great thread you've got happening here!

Regards


Solucius

nospoon3
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posted 05-05-99 09:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nospoon3   Click Here to Email nospoon3         

A pic on this site may help you folks wondering about the golden stuff in Neo's chest as he is pulled into the NEB

I still think its just leftover pod goo.....what I don't get it why its golden.

http://www.eonmagazine.com/archive/9904/FEATURES/big_picture/matrix/features_frameset.htm

Happy hunting


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There is no spoon

Welcome to the Desert of the Real

cecilc
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posted 05-05-99 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Wow!...I’ve got a lot to answer here (and answer FOR, I guess!).

Solucius,...
Thanks for your comments. And, yes, I did see your posting in that “other thread” :-) You mention the hijacking of Jesus,....I quite agree. I think His message and redemptive act have been so distorted, misued, misconstrued, misinterpreted, and manhandled (heavy emphasis on the MAN part!) down through the years that people have become mistrustfull and afraid of Him. Just look at the reponse of people here in this forum at the mention of His name! But I know,.....I know,.....I was that way, too, once! But all that’s for another topic,.....e-mail me,.....we’ll talk. It’ll be fun!

Mike,...
So, you’re saying that Neo is the “reincarnated” version of that first guy who could “...manipulate the Matrix any way he saw fit...” Not just resurrected Saviors (Neo/Christ), but reincarnated ones (Neo/Christ). But despite your postings elsewhere :-) I’m almost sure that we’ve brought this up before in here (I’m just pullin’ your chain - believe me, there was nothing taken “wrongly” or out of context!). I remember writing that I didn’t think Neo was any more a reincarnation than I thought Christ was. And that I didn’t think that it would be a reincarnated Christ that returns for His 2nd Visit, but the good, ol’ fashion, original Jesus. That’s just my own personal take on the reincarnation thing,....but, like you pointed out, Mike, the Book doesn’t rule it out! Hey,...anything’s possible! And maybe that’s why the Book constantly warns us about the “false” prophets, Messiahs, and Christs - maybe because He WILL return as a reincarnation and we’ll really have to be on our toes to discern the REAL one!

shadrach,...
Enjoyed your post. Especially the “close minded” and “other perspectives” ideas. I think that’s very true. From a personal viewpoint, I’ve lived in the middle east, the far east, around Europe, and North Africa - and it’s not that I don’t bother to see any other perspective, I’ve SEEN some other perspectives. And I can tell you that the day-to-day PRACTICAL application of these “perspectives” do not promote a RELATIONSHIP with God as much as they promote a rote OBSERVANCE of God. Not faith as much as duty. Now that’s a huge difference! (I hope I can avoid the “promiscuous” label, though!) Hope to see more posts from you.

Sampson,...
Do I have to tell you MY decoder?! :-) You might want to check with Mike on the Torah Codes!

Formula,...
I really hope that everything you’ve read in this thread (and any others, for that matter!) is a help to you! I also hope that what you have to say to us is as big a help to us! Keep it comin’!

tracer,...
I haven’t forgotten. I’m just pondering.

Cecil out

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NyQ'ill
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posted 05-05-99 02:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NyQ'ill   Click Here to Email NyQ'ill         

I read your messages in the New York Times Film Forums message board and I saw that they all gave you a pretty hard time in there!

------------------
"WHOA....."
"The Matrix has you."

12321
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posted 05-05-99 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Cecil: No, I’m saying that Morpheus said that Neo is the “reincarnated” version of that first guy who could... He DOES seem to say that, right? [important that you respond to this one]

And about watchin’ out for false claimants... Even if The One were alive and here with us, [an idea I subscribe to btw] he’d know enough not to flap his arms and say, “Look! Here I am!” ‘cause that’s not how it’s supposed to play out. When the Father gives the sign, he’ll take to the sky. [remember, the Kid doesn’t know when -- not the hour or the day]

If Christ had to assume human form once again, it might be called “reincarnation,” but how would that not be the “original” Jesus? “The good, ol’ fashion, original Jesus” had to do it the hard way, just like us, so why not repeat the process?

This is a matter of semantics not disagreement, right?

----- ----- -----

And I hereby grant you and all others permission to disagree with me without polite preamble. An example:

Mike, you unmitigated bone-head! How can you possibly believe such drivel?

See? I took no offense.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

kyote
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posted 05-05-99 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyote   Click Here to Email kyote         

Only the whole is the Divine Manifestation without exclusion.--- Da Avabhasa
---------------------------------------------
Jesus Christ
Muntazar
Quetzalcoatl
The Sioux Messiah: A man in a red cloak coming from the East.
Djojobojo
Pahana
Amida
Maitreya
The White Burkhan
Kalki or Javada
Saoshyant
An olive-skinned man with long beard and
white hair who comes from the East.
As time goes by, human after human will contribute to the growth of the Uniter. The Uniter is
in opposition to the old thought and its ability to limit love. But the old thought was necessary
for the new to be born [or, the necessary manure for the flowering]. Everything is a oneness.
All the new is not really new. All this has been spoken before by different masters of different
times, but it is only now in this new time that it will be understood that it will be lived. Together
all of you who are listening to this are the body of the Uniter, the body and the limbs. Together
you are the new thought of the the time.

cecilc
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posted 05-05-99 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Mike,...
Yes, you're right. I think Morpheus does believe that Neo is the reincarnated version - and, without saying, "You are the reincarnation.", he at least intimates it.

Semantics,...yea! :-)

And you're right about keeping a low profile if He's here now (an idea I'm not so sure of, btw). I think His first announcement to the world of His presence necessarily needs to be a very supernatural one! An announcement that leaves NO doubt!

Cecil out

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cecilc
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posted 05-05-99 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

NyQ'ill,....

Please tell me what this, your last post, refers to, 'cause I've missed it:
---------------------------------------------
I read your messages in the New York Times Film Forums message board and I saw that they all gave you a pretty hard time in there!
---------------------------------------------

Cecil

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12321
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posted 05-05-99 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Cecil writes:
>And you're right about keeping a low profile if He's here now
>(an idea I'm not so sure of, btw).

Understandable. It’s not something we’re taught to expect. No need to agree, spiritually, but in the context of the movie, it seems to be a given. Agreed?

>I think His first announcement to the world of His presence
>necessarily needs to be a very supernatural one!
>An announcement that leaves NO doubt!

Like flying up into the sky? [I know something else comes next, but I’m trying to keep this kosher, you know, with the Book AND the movie]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-05-99 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Mike,...

Oh, yea! In the movie, the man is IN THE HOUSE! And he's flyin' high!

Tell it, brother, tell it!!!!!!

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12321
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posted 05-05-99 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Neo, you seem to be leading two lives...

Think of that in terms of the dual nature of Christ.

----- ----- -----

Let's say that the reason for physical rebirth had something to do with “bearing the sins of mankind.” I’ve tried, for over a decade, to reckon this in terms of the Gethsemane scene...

The guy was sweating blood. There’s a name for that condition [can’t remember] and it actually happens under EXTREME duress. I’ve read that torture -- prolonged, brutal, agonizing torture can lead one to physically sweat blood. Hard to imagine.

I always thought Christ’s sweating blood was a metaphor. Now I believe it true. But the question begs asking: What provoked this response? He knew something terrible about his future. He had doubts and asked if he really had to do it. And the voice said something like, “Yeah, Kid, you really gotta do it.”

The traditional explanation focuses on the beating, whipping, and crucifixion -- horrible without question, but pretty much an everyday event during that time. I think, instead, that Christ had his eyes focused on the next 2,000 years. I believe it was the weight of THAT cross -- the sins of mankind -- that drew blood through his unbroken flesh.

And I’ve come to believe that at the end he wouldn’t have any notion as to his true identity. He’d have to fight his way all the way back, until, at last, the spirit could return and make him whole once again.

The movie is so true to this vision that I believe it an Inspired creation.

We don’t pray to the man. We pray to the Spirit. This perspective may be unorthodox, but I don’t believe it conflicts with our deepest beliefs. My words are crude and don’t begin to tell the whole story, but if they hint at the truth...

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
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posted 05-05-99 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Gotta run to see it again. Just thought of something...

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
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posted 05-05-99 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Mr. Anderson, it seems that you've been living two lives.
[just wanted to get that quote straight]

I grabbed the Bible to make sure I had Gethsemane spelled right. Went to Mark for a couple of reasons and -- 14:32 [where the story begins] caught my eye... Looked at the clock, grabbed the paper, posted that note and out the door.

Yep. The time of Neo’s phone call is 14:32:21. The call at the beginning of the movie is at 13:24:18.

But in those days, following that distress, [then quoting Isaiah]
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give it’s light
-- Mark 13:24

Scorch the sky... deny solar power... darken the sun...

Mark’s Gethsemane account always gets me thinking... especially when the X-Man gets arrested. And the Neb’s plaque contains another reference to this chapter. [Mark III No. 11]

Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”
-- Mark 3:11

Very curious.
Lots more, but time to sleep.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-06-99 04:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Hey, Mike,...

Here you go:
The notion that someone could actually sweat blood seems contrived. However, there is a rare but recognized condition called hematohydrosis, in which capillary blood vessels that feed the sweat glands rupture causing them to express blood. This usually occurs under conditions of extreme physical or emotional stress.

Mike, you are onto something very profound here. I can't wait!!!

Cecil

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12321
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posted 05-06-99 08:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Thanks, Cecil, but I don’t wanna do a monologue. Plus, I’m not sure that I’ll have time. Wingin’ my way to San Diego later today. I’ll try, but may not have much time to post til next week. Ma and Pa-in-law ARE web surfers though, so at least I’ll have a connection.

How do the rest of you feel about what I’ve posted recently. Does the story hold water? You know, does it even make any sense?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-06-99 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Mike,...

Yes, what you've said and posted to date makes perfect sense (well,...to me anyway! And there are those who think I'm a little off!). Regarding the Gethsemane scene: The sweating blood reference I just always took to be fact (there's that fundamentalist nature coming thru!). And the stress causing it: I think more emotional than physical. I think Gethsemane was a huge moment for Christ (and I've said this before in this thread). This is where, I believe, that God the Father let His Son in on just what was going to be played out in the next day or two - in detail. And I think the emotional weight and expectation of His fate (yes, fate!) caused that physical response.

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12321
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posted 05-06-99 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Cecil, I agree with you. The hematohydrosis [thanks for that term btw] is caused by emotional [spiritual?] stress. I’ll try to address that issue...

When you say, “This [Gethsemane] is where, I believe, that God the Father let His Son in on just what was going to be played out in the next day or two - in detail.” do you mean in terms of what I posted yesterday: “The traditional explanation... the beating, whipping, and crucifixion” or are you including the trip to Hell and the part about “bearing the sins of mankind” as well? BIG difference, right? [just trying to clarify]

And about that trip to Hell...

Trinity: Because you have been down there, Neo. You know that road. You know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be...

No?

Trinity: No? Let me tell you what I believe. I believe... you are going to need my help. And since I am the ranking officer on this ship, if you don't like it, I believe you can go to hell. Because you aren't going anywhere else.

How ‘bout, “Because you aren’t going anywhere else WITHOUT MY HELP.”

MY, btw, refers to Trinity as the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit, Neo winds up DOWN THERE... AGAIN!

This has got to be clear for the rest to make sense. Do you see these scenes connecting with each other AND with the story in the Book?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

kyote
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posted 05-06-99 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyote   Click Here to Email kyote         

THE BIBLE'S WORDS:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
In 1 Samuel 15:3 we find the Hebrew prophet Samuel relaying God's order to
exterminate the Amalekites, because their ancestors had opposed the Israelites centuries before: "Now go and
smite Amalek, And utterly destroy all that they have; Do not spare them, But kill both man and woman,
Infant and suckling, Ox and sheep, Camel and ass."

cecilc
Member
posted 05-06-99 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

I'm with you so far, Mike.

Kyote,...
You have a point?

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12321
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posted 05-06-99 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Cecil, he’s done this elsewhere. He seems to be bent on finding the most hateful passages and passing them off as what the Bible REALLY means.

Try the Great Commandment, kyote.

Love. Love God. Love your bother [and sister] and Love yourself. 3 in 1 oil for the soul.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

kyote
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posted 05-06-99 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyote   Click Here to Email kyote         

I'm just trying to present a wider spectrum of what you all are paralleling your insights with, I mean if you choose one passage or teaching mustn't you accept them all, or is it that you just pick and choose the things that sound the most beautiful....the most bright....the most peaceful....although this is very stimulating to the mind, there are very dark secrets out there--within that book ---that no one ever remembers.....Was I ever a slave? Am I now? Will I be in 10 years?
-----------------------Don't get me wrong, I am very peaceful --And I'm no darker than than a Redwood in the Highlands(still living)--I'm just a little bitter with the whole Bible thing.....Didn't Hitler have the original version in his possession when he was ruling??????? Now The King James Version roams the planet like some sort of virus...
There are good points in the Bible...perhaps I'm being redundant, but there are good -fascinating morals that are in the Bible...I just like to Stir It Up, God being so Peaceful and all, apparantly had . from the teachings of this book had us slay each other for peace, enslave each other for peace and killed his son(himself) for our peace..........Peaceful Guy.

12321
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posted 05-06-99 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Okay, how do your insights parallel the movie?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

kyote
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posted 05-06-99 01:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyote   Click Here to Email kyote         

That' s not what I meant, but I do apologize for being a bit grumpy...There are so many thoughts and parallels I sometimes allow it to get to me emotionally and post something without even caring if it will detour others thoughts into some new direction that they don't necessarily want to go in. I'm dis-obeying one the main Discordian principles by unconsciously trying to alter someone else's perception. For this I apologize, my posts will be more observant in the future...............
..........................
................ .........
...... ...... .... ............
.................There is no poetry in psychology.

12321
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posted 05-06-99 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Apology accepted. Thanks. It takes an honest soul to admit error. [and I should know... I’ve had to admit enough of ‘em]

“Discordian principles”? Is this out of the Illuminati books? Just curious. I’ve read ‘em too.

Here’s the [unedited] post I was about to submit before your 1:52 response popped up ahead of mine:

kyote: You say that you’re peaceful but bitter. Bitter at what?

Oh, I see. Hitler had a Bible. Hitler was bad. Therefore, the Bible is bad.

How ‘bout: Charles Manson listened to The Beatles’ [Helter Skelter]. Charles Manson was bad. Therefore, The Beatles are bad.

“Now The King James Version roams the planet like some sort of virus...”

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation... There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure.

Substitute the Bible for humans in his speech. Are you our cure, kyote?

Jesus came to restore order, to bring new ways to solve old problems. To turn the other cheek rather than take an eye for an eye. Have you considered that?

----- ----- -----

See? Sorry. I responded in an unfriendly tone. Very poor behavior on my part. Talking the talk but not walking the walk.

But I’ll keep trying.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
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posted 05-06-99 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Cecil, no more time to develop those other ideas now. Gotta catch a plane. See ya!

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

kyote
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posted 05-06-99 02:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyote   Click Here to Email kyote         

Sorry once again, it seems my little 'interuption' consumed the amount of time available for the discussion between Cecil and 12321, as for the Discordianism---Indeed. And the whole Hitler thing came from some books on Discordianism that I have read--basically stating that Hitler had a strong hold on the original version--the Transcripts of the Bible--and hired for a great deal of money-50 scholars to re-write certain passages and stories...That's where I was gonna go with that strain, but unfortunately-I noticed I was being a freakin Troll. So- may the Sleeper be Awakened.

cecilc
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posted 05-06-99 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Kyote,...

I had a long answer to those first and second posts of yours concerning....well,...a bunch of stuff; but I've trashed it in light of your last two posts! Very nicely done!
I've a new respect for you, Kyote. I agree with Mike,...it takes a big man to admit error.

Cecil

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kyote
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posted 05-06-99 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyote   Click Here to Email kyote         

Thank You...Here's a little quote of Terrence McKenna's:::::There is some kind of disincarnate intelligence. It's in the water, it's in the
ground, it's in the vegetation, it's in the atmosphere we breath, and our unhappiness, our
discomfort, arises from the fact that we have fallen into history and history is a state of
benighted ignorance concerning the real facts of how the world works.

NyQ'ill
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posted 05-06-99 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NyQ'ill   Click Here to Email NyQ'ill         

Hello Cecil. Did you not post your MATRIX AS MESSIAH MOVIE:THE ORIGINAL THEORUM on the New York Times online MEssage BOard Arts/current film forum? I remember it well. Because I read everything i can find related to keanu reeves and his films. I originally found your theory in there before it turned up over HERE. dont you remember? The people over at the New York Times gave you a very hard time over your theory and they did not agree with it at all. They said that the ONLY reason that the MATRIX opened on EASTER weekend was because STAR WARS was opening in MAY and they did not want a conflict with the STAR WARS box office. dont you remember those arguments at new york times?

------------------
"WHOA....."
"The Matrix has you."

cecilc
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posted 05-06-99 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

NyQ'ill,...

Thank you so much for replying.
I'll be totally honest (as if I've been lying through my teeth all the rest of the time!), I posted my conclusions about this film EVERY PLACE I could find back on April 2nd and 3rd when I first saw the film. The plain truth is - I don't remember! :-) I wish I could. If I saw the site again, it might jog my memory. Do you have the site address? If you do, or can even give me directions to it, I'd appreciate it. Thanks again.

Cecil

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cecilc
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posted 05-07-99 01:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Hey, gang,....

Just had a quick thought. Have we paralleled the Oracle with anything yet in this thread? I used to just equate her with a God figure in this movie, but without any real conviction about that. Let me throw this out and see what response there is about it: The Oracle represents the Old Testament. (I got no backup for that, but if you've seen the movie, you know where I'm coming from here) Comments, anybody?

Cecil

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guigirl
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posted 05-07-99 03:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for guigirl   Click Here to Email guigirl         

i don't seem to recall the Old Testament baking six cookies and smoking cigarettes though.

such a smart-aleck, am i!

cheers
guigirl@home - would go into this serious but BY CHRIST! it's 5 in the morning! yikes!

------------------
+ provoke + always + provoke +
+ http://parasites.org +

12321
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posted 05-07-99 06:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

The Oracle is definitely the one from Delphi. Too many similarities to not acknowledge that fact. [from the road, no reference material, no spell checker, no net... I feel naked!]

However... [hey, I gotta play along, right?] the Old Testament DOES have passages that begin with: AN ORACLE...

Contestants?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

OnFyre4God
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posted 05-07-99 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for OnFyre4God   Click Here to Email OnFyre4God         

Hello All!

12321: Jesus will not return as the innocent lamb, when He returns He will be as the roaring Lion of Judah! And remember, Jesus said that he would sit at the right hand of the father until His enemies are made His footstool. If He is now seated in a heavenly place, He cannot be living on the earth now. Besides, there would have to be another virgen birth for that to happen.

cecilc: The vase diologue nicely illustrates the law and God's provision for the breaking of it via one of His children. . . watch this scene again. I think the cookie might have something to do with a grain offering, althogh I am going out on a limb there. The way she inspects Neo is also very nostalgic of the way temple priests would inspect a passover lamb. Tell me what you think. . . I'm sure there is a lot more in this scene.

Sorry about the blunt reply's guys. I'm in a hurry. Gotta go see The Mummy. . .

------------------
Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand!

Only One God

NyQ'ill
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posted 05-07-99 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NyQ'ill   Click Here to Email NyQ'ill         

hello cecil! go to the New York Times online....I do not know how to set up a link here.....nytimes.com will be a good start for you..........go to forums/current film and if you skip way back you will find it. it is a lousy board system that takes forever and only shows 3 or 4 messages a page! isnt that stupid considering it is the TImes!

------------------
"WHOA....."
"The Matrix has you."

cecilc
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posted 05-07-99 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

NyQ'ill,...

Thanks a lot. That's a big help, and I will pursue it. I'll post again later and let you know what I found.

Cecil

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12321
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posted 05-08-99 06:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

OnFyre: I hear ya, but I've been fairly consistent in referring to the two stories I see playing out in the Book. That you don't subscribe to the two creations [I claim are described in Genesis 1 and 2] may mean that we won't agree on the rest of this.

No problem.

What I'm getting at is something like separation of church and state, but in this case it's more like separation of flesh and Spirit. Has to do with my interpretation of what it means to "bear the sins of mankind."

I've also written of God days and man days being played out in this story. [you know, the 1,000 years as opposed to 24 hours] I know few people agree with me on this and I wouldn't think of demanding that anyone BELIEVE what I'm writing. I do, however, think it may be a worthwhile thought experiment. Whether you wish to play along or not is your call. That you may disagree at every turn is okay.

Okay?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-08-99 06:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Mike,...

I see what you're talking about in the comparison of Man days vs. God days. You might also carry that a bit further in Man/God time/eras vs. Movie time/eras. By necessity, in a movie, you have to condense time to try to fit a huge story into a couple of hours - so you take shortcuts. Seconds=hours - hours=days - so on and so forth. Take this one: Instead of the Biblical 3 days, Neo is dead for 72 seconds on screen before he's resurrected. However, 72 HOURS equal 3 days!

Cecil out

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12321
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posted 05-08-99 07:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Good point, Cecil, except you blow about half my ideas outta the water with that one. Hmm... Half?

The Kid was only dead about 36 hours. He dies right before the Sabbath begins [at sundown on Friday] and rises at sunup on Sunday... early on the third day.

We sit at the very end of the second God day. And something seems to be stirring.

OnFyre: About that virgin birth...

To bear the sins of mankind I believe it must be something else entirely. The unholy fetus fields in the movie are certainly a powerful metaphor...

None of what I'm getting at should diminish the image of our Hero. To me, it adds meaning to the nature of the price paid for us. And it begins to explain why the guy sweated blood over it.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-08-99 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Sorry, Mike!
I really didn't mean to step all over you! :-)

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tracer
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posted 05-08-99 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer         

In an earlier post I asked a question, "Who do you trust?"

I don't know about you, but I tend to trust the One who, like Neo, has demonstrated the power to "bend" or "break" the "rules". Neo was the only one who could fulfill the prophesy and free mankind, because he alone had the ability to conquer the Matrix. He performed signs and miracles (ability to move like the agents, the helicopter scene, etc.) testifying to his power. Likewise, consider the life of Christ. Christ "plugged into" the Matrix of this world through a virgin birth. He walked among us as one of us, yet he knew this world for what it is. Did not Christ "bend the rules" frequently? He walked on water, turned water into wine, performed healings, restored sight to the blind, raised the dead, etc. By breaking the rules of this Matrix Christ demonstrated the existence of it, and thereby established the existence of the Truth which is the reality outside this reality.

If we accept the path to which Christ invites us, we too are promised the ability to rise above the confinements of this present reality. Acts 2:43, "Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles." Also, Matthew 17:20, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Does this not sound like an ability to "manipulate the code" of this world, this earthly Matrix? Our source of this power is God, the very creator of this realm, and our means of accessing this power is faith. Our purpose is not unlike that of Neo; to help free our fellow human beings from slavery (of sin), to encourage them to seek the answer to the question that haunts them "like a splinter in their mind", and to be a "mirror" of the Truth and thus reflect light on this present reality.

Just a thought I wanted to toss out. Thanks for listening.

------------------
"It's the question that drives us..."

cecilc
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posted 05-09-99 03:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Very nice, tracer.

You know, I got an e-mail from a lady on 4/22 telling me that Christ never "manipulated reality" like Neo did, so this wasn't a Messiah Movie. My reply to her contained a lot of the examples from your post about the "manipulated reality" from Christ's life (except back then they called them "miracles"!).
Let me recommend another letter that I got, this one from a missionary pastor. I've posted this one on my site (location is in my sig), so you might want to check it out.

Cecil

------------------
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12321
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posted 05-09-99 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Cecil [and all], please keep posting any and all ideas. No consideration for staying true to my vision need play ANY part in your thought processes. Feel free, especially you, OnFyre, [like I need to tell YOU] to blast my ideas outta the water. Critical thought demands these tests.

I've been at this game for quite some time [you know, a decade or so before this movie came out] and very few people agree with me. At first it bothered me, but I've come to understand that this is my path and it matters not. [and Cecil, if you apologize one more time, I'm gonna reach through this computer and grab you by the password!] Heck, this is EXCITING! I love exchanging these ideas.

I'm prone to sappy emotions. I believe some real friendships have developed here. And friends don't let friends apologize needlessly.

ps to tracer: Good one [again]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 05-09-99 09:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Mike,...

I AM password protected, you know!

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shadrach
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posted 05-09-99 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shadrach         

Here are just some ideas I've had lately.

Okay, first of all: it says in the Bible that Christ only spoke in parables. Therefore, whenever he talks about moving mountains I don't think this means actual mountains, but I think it means changing our selves internally. "Earth" metaphysically refers to the "personality" (based in the forehead) that we typically identify with, wheras "Heaven" refers to the "heart" (based in the solar plexus). Through faith we can "move the mountain" of our idenity, relocating it from the personality to the heart. From there, the angels can bombard the "Earth" with firestorms and great winds to cleanse us of sin. Those with "the seal of God in their forehead" are preserved; I.E. those whose identity is seated in the heart and not the brain. Remember that with infants, the spine develops, and then the heart, and then the brain, and then the system comes online. Children typically have a more heart-based feeling of self until the enter public schools (big surprise).

The Old Testament is called "old" for a reason: it is not the way we work with God now. There is something called the "New Covenant," which is the current relationship every human being has the right to have with The One which is inside of themselves. Your heart is beating right now, and for your entire life it has been beating, and just like life on Earth depends on the Sun to keep giving it light, your mind depends on your heart to keep giving it blood. The Sun depends on the Galaxy, which depends on the Universe, which depends on the laws of physics, which depends on God. Now, if you have a better explanation, or if perhaps you're alive but your heart isn't beating, then lets hear about it.

Nobody ever said God is all-loving; they said God is love. There is a difference. You cannot have light, without darkness. The great and mighty men of this world, would not exist if it were not for their slaves (read: you and me). That means, that just like the Earth depends on the Sun, the rich depend on the poor. Hence, the meek shall inherit; the Sun will eventually expand and consume the Earth.

Do you doubt that God is a living, conscious entity? Every living, conscious entity on Earth started out as a higher form of energy in the Sun, which originated from an even higher form of energy. If you follow this vector, it only leads to One place.

This "disincarnate intelligence" of McKenna's which Kyote refers to, has many names in many cultures. What it is, I believe, is what I tend to refer to as "love," or "God." To think that God is not a physical entity, is ridiculous. Indeed I believe love is a non-local energy field, which is all-consciousness and operates at sub-quantum levels. Check out a book called "The Heart's Code" for some really good info. on this; it's a veritable scientific fact which has simply not been adopted by mainstream science (mostly because it invalidates almost everything we think is "true").

Why don't we look at the return of Christ in a more psychological sense? A more internal, spiritual sense? Don't you realize that we can be in Heaven right now? I think that is what this movie is trying to get us to do. It is trying to tell us that each of us are The One as soon as we believe we are. "There is no spoon ... what bends is yourself." That means, Christ isn't talking about moving an actual mountain in the sense your mind concieves of it.

One thought experiment that works great for me, is reading Revelation but taking the whole thing in its symbolic, esoteric meaning. I.E., fire=attention, wind/air=emotional state, earth=identity, water=will, sea=physical body, throne=heartbeat/heart, etc. The four beasts around the throne are the physical body, the emotions, the intellect, and the instincts (the calf, the lion, the face of a man, and the eagle).

OK, that's it now.

cecilc
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posted 05-09-99 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

shadrach,...

Interesting post,.....however......

"it says in the Bible that Christ only spoke in parables." ????? Where does it say that? I know He USED parables on occasion, but there were many more situations where He was just flat-out DIRECT (I really like those parts!).
The "New Covenant" is in Matthew 26:28 "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." Actually, that blood was poured out for EVERYBODY that chooses to take advantage of it! If/when you accept Christ, all the sin of your entire life is place on Christ, 'cause that's why He died! Is that what you're talking about here!
And I would like to know WHO came up with those symbolic, esoteric meanings for the Book of Revelation?

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Simplex
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posted 05-10-99 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Simplex         

Just thought I'd share a revelation with everyone. As this is my first post here I'd like to express my gratitude to cecil for his boldness with his views. Anyone here ever think of the Matrix as a formula? The world we live in is seeing more and more of the supernatural. In the last days his spirit will be poured out upon all man. If you've seen "David Blaine Magic Man" then you know that the enemy is equipping his followers as well. The Matrix has given me a new view on Faith. There is a formula that God has shown us in his word and oddly enough, that this movie has portrayed. God designed us with his plan for our lives. When his holy spirit reveals to us who we are in him, we have the choice whether to follow or ignore. Ring any bells? Once revealed, we learn about him and how to hear his voice through his word, yet without complete and unquestioning faith, the truths that are laid out in his word - including the authority we have and the powers against darkness - are useless. Just a quick idea I thought I'd throw out for discussion.

12321
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posted 05-10-99 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

shadrach: If by, “you cannot have light, without darkness” you infer that one cannot have good without evil or love without hate, I must disagree at every turn, unless...

I find most of what you say very enlightening, so maybe I’m misunderstanding. If you mean that the duality is a temporary necessity to help to distinguish between polar opposites, then okay, but once grasped -- completely grasped -- there is no need for the dark side. It will eventually boil down to a choice between existence and non-existence.

Eventually, light will outgrow the need for darkness. This is written in the Book and in my heart. It’s like Neo said: “I’m going to show them a world without you...”

Simplex: I hear bells ringing.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com
mike@ix625.com


Sampson
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posted 05-10-99 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson         

Hey all

I just wanted to stop in and ask u all to read the

"Experiment for open minded and creating the new millinium "
Post by Mposible

I know we don't all see things the same
and that is ok

I think that we can all meditate and pray in each of our ways. The result will still be magnificent

as a personal favor to me check it out
if u go to church
talk to members of ur congregation and ur minester
U may be able to organize a group prayer at this the time secified

thank you for your time

I hope u check this out and apply it

Millions of people praying at the same time for the same thing...
Sounds like that would even move physical mountains...

If we don't see things quite the same now
I still believe we are all going to the same place and we all have the same source.
We can work together for a better future
and our diversity in beliefs will only make us all stronger

Sam

tracer
Member
posted 05-10-99 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer         

shadrach: About "moving mountains", that was a nice post. I don't recall having heard that interpretation before.

Generally, I agree with you that Christ was speaking metaphorically. I don't think His point was that Christians should roam about the Earth moving mountain ranges back and forth. I think He was trying to communicate the power of REAL faith. He would soon be relying on His disciples to continue His plan, and knew in doing so that He was asking them to change the world. This is a momentous challenge, and He needed to convey to them that, through faith, they would be able to overcome ALL obstacles (even those that seem mountainous).

However, I believe He also implied the statement literally. Christ actually displayed control over the physical world (calming the storm, walking on water). Part of His message is that if you DID need to move a mountain (literally), you COULD do it! Such is the power of faith!

-----

To ALL: Glad to see this discussion still alive! I've been perusing other threads, and the quality of thought/posts seems to be waning.

------------------
"It's the question that drives us..."

cecilc
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posted 05-10-99 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Simplex,...

We're so glad you're here! Thanks for your post. You'll have to pardon my chuckling while I'm typing this, but,...you think I'M bold! You need to take in a few of OnFyre's posts! Now THERE'S BOLD! But I'll tell you,...he's as good as he is bold.
And, YES, I have seen David Blaine! They should call him "David Blaine Amazing Man". That guy's incredible! I'm not so sure if we're SEEING more of the supernatural, but the willingness to BELIEVE in it more I think is certainly there!
And I say, "Amen" to the rest of your post. Thanks.
Cecil

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12321
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posted 05-11-99 07:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

tracer: I agree with your take on the power of Faith. [or Belief, for those who don't like that word... same thing when it gets to that level] It’s like Morpheus said: “You have to let it all go, Neo, fear, doubt, and disbelief.”

And about other threads... I’m still seeing some strong ideas in many different places. Don’t wanna name drop ‘cause I’m sure I’d fail to mention many worthy posters and topics.

As for this thread... Strong continuity and development of the theme, but this place has to have more loose ends than any other. [and I consider THAT another strength... it means we have a wealth of details in place to yet explore]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com
mike@ix625.com


Simplex
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posted 05-11-99 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Simplex         

First, thanks for the warm welcome. Saw it again last night and caught quite a few new revelations. For those who aren't born again christians - first off - I'm scared for you and second-my views and opinions will seem far fetched and at times I wiil speak of hearing from God so know that it can and does happen. Anyway, caught another underlying parallel to scripture.- God gave Satan dominion over the earth yet through the belief and faith in him we have the authority to overcome and resist the powers of the enemy. Man burnt the sky in the movie and the machines subjugated them into "copper tops" until which time they choose to see the truth. Then through faith and belief, can overcome the powers of this world. IE the rules that "some can be bent others broken" I still find it funny that as god used a donkey once, he still finds methods (this movie) to speak truths and teachings to us...

cecilc
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posted 05-12-99 03:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Nice post, simplex.

Has anyone else noticed all the "new" threads popping up concerning "God", "Jesus", and the roles of both as they pertain to The Matrix? Interesting!

OnFyre,...
I agree with the post you made back on 5/7 about Jesus' return. I always thought He would return according to the description in Revelation, too!

Cecil

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12321
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posted 05-12-99 06:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321         

Cecil: OnFyre disagreed with me and I tried to explain. [in the 6:06 AM post on 050899]

I want to state for the record that I’m not trying to rewrite Revelation. I’m just trying to understand it and the rest of this amazing Book. I ask, seek, and knock most days til my metaphorical knuckles are raw. I sure didn’t set out to find new or different interpretations, but...

Christ sweated blood. The price paid for us was steep.

The Book says that meaning is often hidden or layered or sealed and that our minds are cloudy. I take that literally and have tried [quite often not as hard as I am capable] to understand anyway. Maybe some or all of what I find is based on nothing but my own faulty perceptions. Who knows?

Those who received and preserved the Torah [the first five books of the Bible] claim that there are four layers of meaning, the first of which is the literal. I see nothing wrong with stopping at this point, and if I had been able to do so, I would have. But that [layers of meaning] DOES seem to allow for differing interpretations.

Some fundamentalists believe the world to be about 6,000 years old. That’s what the Book says, right? At that fourth level of meaning, encoded within the first 42 letters of the Torah [in what is called the 42 letter name of G-d] is supposedly the actual age of the universe: 15.3 billion years.

Now, is it right for either group to insist that THEIR answer is right?

If one feels comfortable with literal interpretations, well and good. If one feels a need to follow the trail to deeper, hidden meanings, that should be okay as well, shouldn’t it? The point, dear friend, is that one meaning is not necessarily better than the other, but that IT IS THERE to answer if one feels the need to ask.

Very disturbing answers lie just below the surface. But for those who continue despite the discomfort, marvelous wonders await.

THAT, btw, DOES NOT infer that the literal interpretation cannot be marvelous as well. It does, however, mean that other layers are guarded by that which we reflexively recoil. After all, who among us turns to the Book to find discomfort?

Now, I’m gonna say it again: Christ sweated blood. The price paid for us was steep.

MY NEED to understand has driven me past layers of discomfort to find meaning. Yes, the price was and continues to be steep, but not as great, FOR MYSELF, as the price of turning away.

For now, we may not see eye to eye, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t grasp the same message. It’s the ultimate outcome that matters most. And there, without question, we’ll find ourselves in agreement.

Does this make sense?

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com
mike@ix625.com


cecilc
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posted 05-12-99 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Mike,...
I totally agree about the "layered" aspect of things. I would even go so far as to say that there are layers upon layers of truth even in that LITERAL interpretation you were speaking of. And if you dig and ask, sometimes the answers and revelations ARE a bit uncomfortable with what we've been TOLD is right! But even though it may be a "discomfort", it doesn't make it any less the truth! Does that sound on-line with what you've posted?

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cecilc
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posted 05-12-99 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Something I meant to include in my last post,...
When Neo actually found out the "truth" of his existence, didn't he find that a bit discomforting? Yea,...he protested vigorously, but it didn't take away the "truth" of what he'd been shown and told. But he did come around to accepting that "truth".

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cecilc@mindspring.com


jim w
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posted 05-12-99 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jim w         

I appreciated "The Matrix" showing that truth is not necessarily easy.

Even Jesus, who said "I am the way, and the TRUTH...(John 14:6)" Himself sweated blood (as mentioned in prior posts) in the embodiment and execution of truth.

Yes, the truth will set you free, but it at times involves a battle. But truth's battle concludes in permanent victory. Interesting that Cypher says that "ignorance is bliss", when in actuality, truth ends in bliss (see Rev. 21 & 22) - though it may not be a 'blissful' path to reach that destination.

How about this statement:
"In much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain." (Ecclesiastes 2:1).

This has always been a problem with humanity - the truth hurts, the truth costs (for example, accepting Christ for salvation inherently means admitting, often painfully, that you are faulty, that you NEED to be saved from something). But error, while possibly 'blissful' for a season, costs far, far more in the long run.

cecilc
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posted 05-12-99 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

Good to see you here, Jim!
I'd recognize that prose anywhere now!

Cecil

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cecilc
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posted 05-12-99 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc         

We are now in Book V, gang! Here are the thread links for all 5 sections!

The Original: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html

For Part II: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000750.html

For Part III: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000855.html

For Book IV: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000930.html

For Book V: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/001045.html

Thanks to everyone!

Cecil

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Reach me at:
thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah Movie"
cecilc@mindspring.com