As per requests,...we start Part 3 of this thread. Thanks for the suggestion ... it was needed!

For the original thread:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html

For Part II:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000750.html

OnFyre4God!

I like your style, friend!
There is but ONE Jesus! ONE way!

GUESS I TOUCHED A NERVE! Didn't mean to offend, if I did, but I'm glad to hear from everyone!

OnFyre4God:
Okay -- message received loud and clear. You may not want to ruffle feathers, but when you proclaim that the only way to believe is YOUR way, it sorta gets me going.
First of all, I want to say that faith as strong as yours in ANY form is a powerful and wonderful thing -- there is nothing better in this world than spreading positivity and understanding of the higher power. I just don't subscribe to the idea that there is BUT ONE religion that is COMPLETELY correct. I'm not doubting Christ's teachings, just whether or not he was the only one who had anything valuable to say. I think it becomes dangerous when we start eliminating other people from grace and truth and compassion just because they don't read the Bible, or whatever. It's the divisiveness in our world that causes people to kill one another over things like borders, holy teachings, even slams on high school kids with little or no reverence for their life or anyone else's. If we are to find a way to come together and heal, we must stop fighting fire with fire -- the only way to combat an absence (evil) is with a presence (faith). I have faith and know that my God NEVER judges me (or anyone else) according to what book he/she reads or what church he/she attends.

I HAVE taken the red pill, and it opened my eyes to the beauty that is ALL around us. "The answer is out there Neo, it's looking for you. And it will find you, if you want it to."

12321:
I guess my doctrine can be summed up like this: I believe there was/is/has always been one all-encompassing higher power (GOD). That higher power, being perfection, could not know itself as perfect because it had no reference point (you can't know what's hot if you don't know cold -- you can't know perfection unless you know imperfection). Therefore, it created us as individual aspects of itself by which it could experience all the limits of every emotion and experience known and unknown. Each of us is bound to the higher power by its representation in each of us, our souls.

Our lives are spent experiencing things that lead us to the knowledge of who we really are -- (which is to say, an actual component of the ultimate higher power - i.e., a candle in the sun) and to the realization that we are all capable of affecting the greater force by our thoughts, words, and deeds. Mind - body - spirit; my personal trinity. What you put out there to the universe is what you will get back.

I simply do not believe organized religion can even begin to touch on how big the picture really is. God is the ALL, the here and the there, the seen and the unseen, the space in between empty spaces -- he doesn't care if you pray according to Judiasm, Christianity, Catholocism, Taoism, Buddhism, in your back yard, Native American beliefs, etc., etc., We have to stop sticking people in round or square holes like pegs. There is no spoon -- free your mind.

BTW I recently read a book that changed my life (literally) and it completely sums up what I am (rather poorly) trying to say. It is "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch. I know, I know, most of you are probably rolling your eyes (I hope not!) If you want a really enlightening look at a very engaging new (or not so new) idea, give it a read (you may have to turn off the organized religion part of your brain for a spell tho! ).

Sorry to babble on so much! Thanks for the feedback -- I HONESTLY think this thread and ALL the things being expressed here are fascinating and I have agreed with SO MUCH of what has been said. And I am in total agreement with the parallels to the biblical teachings. Please don't think I'm trying to stir something up. This movie was such a completely amazing piece of work, I'm glad other people got as much out of it as I did!

Thanks, Cecil.

And I’m not sure if this is a tip or something you all know about or already do [get to the point, Mike] but if you open those other threads and save them as source you’ve got easy access to the Messiah Movie post archives and can read ‘em off line.

Now back to the movie... I’m gonna see it for the third time this Sunday. No note pad or tape recorder this time. Just sit back and enjoy. One of the many details I’m gonna watch for is the golden heart.

After Neo is flushed from his pod, the Neb deploys a line and lifts him into the ship. A pool of water remains on Neo’s chest [sternum] and seemed to shine with an odd intensity... the color and the shape made me think it may have been an intentional element. I’d not noticed it the first time. Did anyone else see this or was I seeing something that wasn’t really there?

Neophile-: You think and feel deeply. That you care and don’t wish to offend is just as obvious. But you can’t point a finger without poking yourself in the eye. It’s like gravity. You drop a rock, it’s gonna hit the ground. This is one of the things that Jesus [among others] tried to explain.

To you, OnFyre’s beliefs are divisive. You point out why. Then you say your truth.

For the most part, the people here are truth seekers. We want to know. We say that we’d say yes to the red pill. Heck, most of us, myself included, have claimed to have already taken it.

We’re all definitely full of something, and it sure ain’t red pills.

Each of us has our own truths and beliefs and questions, and it’s good to discuss and share ‘em, but that isn’t the primary topic of this thread. Maybe if we recognize and allow for these differences while we explore the Messiah theme, we’ll all see something new.

And if any of us claim to have all the answers, he/she better be prepared to back that up by flying overhead.

Does this sound reasonable?

tracer: The pool of water was just a guess. It may have been an object affixed to Reeves for this single scene. If it's water, it'll move when they move him. I'll watch close.

If it's not water, this's really an interesting element.

12321:
Yeah, I guess I finally get your point (I wasn't listening well enough before -- sorry!) This thread is specifically about the link to the Messiah; gotcha now! Thanks!

I'm going on my sixth viewing of the film and I still can't figure out what that thing is on Neo's chest. I thought it was just one of the places one of the "plugs" hooked in, but he has two of those on his chest, to either side, not one in the middle. I just don't know! I'll go again this weekend and see if I can "divine" ( ) anything substantial!

I must be getting old, I swear I submitted this reply, but it never showed up!
Anyway . . .
12321:
My brain finally clicked into what you've been saying -- this thread in particular is only about the Messiah aspect of the movie. I just got sidetracked on my own thang -- sorry.

As for the golden heart thing, I have seen the film 6 times and I still don't know what it is. I thought it was one of the "plug-in" ports, but he had two of those on his chest and in the scene you're questioning there is only one, right in the middle. Looks like a makeup mistake, but I'm sure that's impossible in this movie -- it must be dripping with meaning somehow!

You know, I hate it when the computer makes you look like a total idiot (not that I don't do a good enough job myself). Sorry 'bout the double entry!

Lots of people have pointed out that Neo is a christ figure, that Judeo-Cristian images and themes constanty crop up in the movie, and that the types of resurections, revelations, and betrayals central to the New Testament are also central to The Matrix.

These discussions place the movie BACK into a conventional context in which it can be understood (and partially dismissed -- ohh, another Christ image, how trite.) Perhaps it is more useful to see how the movie comments on religion and how history and religion operate in the Matrix. Let's take an inside out perspective on things, shall we?

The movie seems to suggest that before the triumph of the AI, history existed as we know it, and that the world of the matrix is a perfect replica of 1999 (Sydney, Australia!).
But remember -- nothing in the matrix REALLY exists, especially history. History contructs the Matrix's notions of truth, past, cause, effect, and justifications. These notions are UNREAL twice over. They are still part of the AI programming, and they are PAST, gone, unverifiable. History exists even less than breakfast cereal in the Matrix. So to have 'bibles' 'churches' and other historically determined symbols in the assembly language of society is to create 'relics' that are avaliable to be picked up and used by those who would wish to resist that society.

The AI, by precisely reproducing the present moment, have relinquished control over that moment's history. We know that we can use the scraps of programming language lying around in the Matrix to resist the AI (guns, telephones, subway trains, etc.) To resist the AI you need to recombine the elements within the Matrix and weild them against their makers.

This is why religion and mysticism are so important in processes of resistance: you can use the power of these metaphors and archtypal constructs to advance your agenda.
Neo HAS to be a hero -- he that goes beyond and comes back to enlighten the deluded (like Plato's metaphore of the cave, or the Buddha's transcendence and return, or Christ's death and resurection). Notions of moving beyond the limited consciousness of our existence are FUNDAMENTALLY religious in nature. You could refuse to draw on these metaphors, and make Neo into a renegade Schwartzenegger figure, but then you strip him of his justification as the ONE to save AND enlighten MILLIONS of people. (Just like refusing to draw on the programming language that makes bullets would render our renegade hero pretty damn powerless.)

So Zion must be Zion -- a promised land that may survive because humans have sought to establish and defend Zion throughout all of 'history.' Trinity must in a sense be THE Trinity (even though most guy's think that the 'Trinity' or GOD is a man) so that she can speak down to her beloved and raise him from the dead. And Neo must be the ONE, tapping into the mythos of the construct in order to effectively alter it. If a significant part of the population is actively waiting for the Second Comming and the rest is a little nervous of the posability because they can not reject it outright, why not USE that image? Why not USE religion just as one uses martial arts -- as a focusing of the mind to transcend the world and alter it effectively?

Of course, more is at work here than just a calculated invocation of the religious that is meant to destroy the AI. The oracle's words are powerful and true even in the Real (aparently not simulated) World. Trinity can somehow speak to Neo from across the divide. Which brings us to my next point.

In _this_ real world, when telling a story about resistence and social transformation, why not USE religion as a dominant metaphor to persuade and captivate your audiences? As a movie maker at the ass end of the twentieth century, what conventions may you employ, what collectively held beliefs and knowledge can you reference to move your audience? Religion is key.

So for all those who would criticise the Matrix as JUST another religious alegory, I would only say -- The Matrix makes everything into allegory. Everything represents something else. All symbols may be USED as symbols, as cascading streams of green pouring dawn across a screen. Nothing is absolute or fixed. No destiny, no reality, AND NO RELIGION. All may be used to see the truer truth of our condition. In this context all that is meaningless once more becomes meaningFULL. The Matrix references MANY religious concepts from Kirkagard's leap of faith to a Buddhist sunyata or emptiness. And it is ultimately through these concepts and NOT through the bullets that resistence is achieved. So the moral of the story:

Don't throw away any potentially useful ways of knowing (just as you wouldn't throw away any perfectly good M-16s) that you may find on the path. Because walking the path is moving through symbolic systems, ways of knowing, subways, lobbies, and other simulated and unreal things that amazingly and mystically always bring one closer to an ultimate truth.

Metaconstrux: I’ve gotta read that about a dozen more times before I can even hope to offer an intelligible comment.

Neophile-: You heard. I’m impressed. You’ve got passion, and that’s a precious thing, but it’s sometimes hard to listen when the passion is flowing. Scroll back and you’ll see that I’ve gotten sidetracked on my own thang a few times too. [especially in the original Imagery and Metaphor thread] Don’t sweat it.

Metaconstrux: AMEN BROTHER!

12321: Thanks!

Re: Neo as Christ figure...

Anybody notice that Agent Smith is the only one who "hates." The other agents are merely programs meant to carry out a function. They go after Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, and the like simply because that is their function. No good or evil attached to it. But Agent Smith is the only one who has "evolved" emotion of the three...that emotion being "hate." The perfect anti-Christ figure. But also the most human of the three agents (again the trinity shows up).

Just a random thought....

Stealth111: About that “evolved” notion...

Smith sends the other two agents away, takes out his earpiece [hardwire connection to the Matrix?] and gives Morpheus the “I’m going to be honest with you” speech [filled with his own hate and “needs”] while Neo and Trinity begin blasting their way in.

Then the other two agents return to the room:

Agent Brown [to Smith]: What were you doing?
Agent Jones [seeing the disconnected ear piece]: He doesn't know.
Agent Smith [putting his earpiece back in]: Know what?

Three agents. Nine words. Dual meanings.

Good observation, Stealth.

It's incredible to me how "random thoughts" turn into gems in this thread! Wow!...

Of course, this leads into MY random thinking! First off, let me say that my latest thinkings are NOT,...I repeat,...NOT to dismiss or repute or disparage or in any way, shape, or form cut into Mike's ideas regarding the end of the movie being a prelude to the 2nd coming! But I've had an inkling in this direction.....
Suppose instead of the 2nd coming, we begin to move into the Book of Acts? The Word now needs to be spread within the Matrix that you CAN be SAVED - IF YOU WANT TO! You can be released from the bondage that you REALLY live in and be free! And to do that, you have to talk to this particular group (our favorite group!), because that's the ONLY way for you to be saved! No one else can do it! You certainly can't do it on your own - you need help!
So,...are we headed for the "...no one comes to the Father but through me." parallel, too?!
And,...and...how will the general population of the Matrix respond to that message?!
As always,...I can't wait for comments!

Cecil: That’s quite a disclaimer you’ve got there. And that’s a really good connection you’re making. I agree, I can see it clearly, and it makes sense, except for one thing...

Seems like there’s gonna be a knock-down, drag-out fight between the two factions in the third movie [if the second’s a prequel] and that means somebody’s gonna lose big time.

You see where I’m going with this?

Just saw this amazing film for the first time -- wow. I've read through this thread and appreciate the thoughtful discussion happening here.

Ev: I think that’s a pretty cool explanation, especially considering how others have linked Abraham to Morpheus’ “When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth.“

Maybe I’m not getting some obvious connection, but that just doesn’t feel right.

“When the Matrix was first built...” In the movie, Morpheus says that’s mid 21st century. In this thread, it would be... when? The expulsion from the Garden? The original covenant with God? About two thousand years ago? Sometime in this century? Sometime in our future?

If we accept the fact that allegories do break down at certain points, this may or may not be one of those examples. Each time I shift my reference frame to ponder those questions, answers appear, as do new questions.

The only answer that fits [for me] is one that can’t be bound by the concept of linear time. And that makes it real hard to put into words right now. I’ll keep using 3 in 1 Oil to lubricate my heart and soul to help my mind find the words to bridge this gap. Until then, I leave this for you to ponder and ask others to comment as well.

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Metacortex
Heart O’ the City

On Gold: I didn't notice anything on Neo's chest, but there was apart where I noticed Morpheus wearing a gold neclace of some sort. Also, notice that Neo's jacket, the agent's jackets, and maybe others that I didn't notice are underlaid with gold material.

On the "deployed line" that picked up Neo: Didn't it seem like "the heavens were opened" when the line came down? Also, the square hatch that opened for the "deployed line" was surrounded by three circles. The square and the circles all emitted an intense bright light.

Neophile:
1) I 'm not saying my way is the only way. I'm saying that JESUS is the only way, that's not my philosophy, that is God's Truth!

2) Your absolutely right, your god will never judge you, because your god does not exist. Your god is a figment of your imagination. If you will display you e-mail address or e-mail me, we can discuss this by that route. Otherwise, I will continue to respond to your pholosophies via this forum. (and I really don't wan't to waste anymore room in here.)

Bye-bye now!

------------------
Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand!

Like, so what is red and what is blue?
by Edwin Chan, a friend of mine ...

What is red
and who is blue
the Pimpernel;
my jilted honey-poo.

My honey-poo is all upset
`cos she sees just one ol' hue.
It's true!

Anyway, like seriously
is it that you're getting at
us men, we see too much?
Like, I'm the sculptor man
I sez, just stand back
and see, don't touch!

Comparing a Polish-pair auteur
to shiftless human memory;
Reducing the mechanics of critique
to trite and visual generality
is brave to say the least.

Red and blue
`tis blood and glory
`tis Plato and rhetoric;
`Tis gender, morality,
good and evil
`Tis everything most basic.

OnFyre:
Uh, okay -- whatever. If you want to be that closed-minded, that's your biz. I have a very close relationship with GOD -- which, by the way, there is ONLY ONE OF. My God DOES exist because I exist. I am a part of God (which, by the way, is EVERYBODY'S God) . . . we are all created from that source -- Do you get what I'm saying? Probably not. But, that's cool. I don't want to waste any more time with this here either. . . but I'll end with this:
My point (and problem with one-sided thinking) is that organized religion (or people who claim THEIR way/savior/whatever is the ONLY way) are like Cypher eating that steak. He only knew it tasted delicious because the "system" told him so. There were infinite possibilities out there, and infinite ways for him to experience that steak, but he chose the path of "ignorance is bliss." Others of us that see the bigger picture realize that we don't need someone to tell us the steak tastes good; we just need the nourishment of the "goop," because it has everything the body (soul) needs, and if we are truly enlightened, we don't need to be told by someone else what it tastes like . . . it has infinite possibilities (Tasty Wheat, runny eggs, snot, whatever). I wish you well, my friend -- but I'm afraid the Matrix has you.

Morpheus: "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

FREE YOUR MIND.

OnFyre:
Uh, okay -- whatever. If you want to be that closed-minded, that's your biz. I have a very close relationship with GOD -- which, by the way, there is ONLY ONE OF. My God DOES exist because I exist. I am a part of God (which, by the way, is EVERYBODY'S God) . . . we are all created from that source -- Do you get what I'm saying? Probably not. But, that's cool. I don't want to waste any more time with this here either. . . but I'll end with this:
My point (and problem with one-sided thinking) is that organized religion (or people who claim THEIR way/savior/whatever is the ONLY way) are like Cypher eating that steak. He only knew it tasted delicious because the "system" told him so. There were infinite possibilities out there, and infinite ways for him to experience that steak, but he chose the path of "ignorance is bliss." Others of us that see the bigger picture realize that we don't need someone to tell us the steak tastes good; we just need the nourishment of the "goop," because it has everything the body (soul) needs, and if we are truly enlightened, we don't need to be told by someone else what it tastes like . . . it has infinite possibilities (Tasty Wheat, runny eggs, snot, whatever). I wish you well, my friend -- but I'm afraid the Matrix has you.

Morpheus: "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

FREE YOUR MIND.

OnFyre:
Uh, okay -- whatever. If you want to be that closed-minded, that's your biz. I have a very close relationship with GOD -- which, by the way, there is ONLY ONE OF. My God DOES exist because I exist. I am a part of God (which, by the way, is EVERYBODY'S God) . . . we are all created from that source -- Do you get what I'm saying? Probably not. But, that's cool. I don't want to waste any more time with this here either. . . but I'll end with this:
My point (and problem with one-sided thinking) is that organized religion (or people who claim THEIR way/savior/whatever is the ONLY way) are like Cypher eating that steak. He only knew it tasted delicious because the "system" told him so. There were infinite possibilities out there, and infinite ways for him to experience that steak, but he chose the path of "ignorance is bliss." Others of us that see the bigger picture realize that we don't need someone to tell us the steak tastes good; we just need the nourishment of the "goop," because it has everything the body (soul) needs, and if we are truly enlightened, we don't need to be told by someone else what it tastes like . . . it has infinite possibilities (Tasty Wheat, runny eggs, snot, whatever). I wish you well, my friend -- but I'm afraid the Matrix has you.

Morpheus: "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

FREE YOUR MIND.

Neophile-: Doesn’t that hurt?

Remember this [from 04-27-99 09:36 AM]: You think and feel deeply. That you care and don’t wish to offend is just as obvious. But you can’t point a finger without poking yourself in the eye. It’s like gravity. You drop a rock, it’s gonna hit the ground. This is one of the things that Jesus [among others] tried to explain.

Do you understand how this is true?

Onfire
whatso ever do you mean by saying neophile's god is only in his imagination?

Did someone brainwash u big time?

12321
I agree yes. Tis basically the message.
But, look who is pointing the fingure.
I don't think Neophile is.
He got dragged in maybe by fire boy, but that will happen. Atleast he is trying to comunicate.

Onfire boy and Neophile
I don't want to be a bother, but i am interested in hearing what u both have to say
I don't think it would be a waiste of our time. I mean part of the debate is about the bible here and people's belief systems.
Yes they did have biblical themes in mind very much so when they made the movie, but we can still dicuss these things

Onfire
I am interested in your opinions on Muslim beliefs and Jewish in particular because they have their roots in the same area.

Neophile
I love yur beliefs there
they are pretty much one in the same with mine

You know you know when u can feel the finger in your own eye when u point it at others.

guys love u all

Sampsonator

Without getting into it TOO much, I'd like to add my two cents to what OnFyre and Neophile have been discussing. I see where OnFyre is coming from and I know that that intensity of faith must be incredible. However, it sets me back when humans claim to KNOW what is right and what isn't. Who is to say that we are not ALL interpreting these things (the bible, religion, etc.) wrongly? I think it is important that we try to see that God might have come to different people in different ways/forms....in ways to which they could relate. But then again, I_could_be_wrong.

Now to what I was originally going to post...
I saw it AGAIN last night (3rd time, couldn't resist). Just as great as ever. I saw the pool-of-water-heart thing. To me, it looks like a stretch. It's not water, that's obvious. It looks more like a leaf or some other trash out of the sewer...and it is not really in the shape of a heart...more like a triangle (Trinity?) with round corners. But it is definatley smack in the middle of his chest and couldn't be there for no reason. If it is supposed to represent a golden heart, what is the significance? Sacred Heart?

And the gold in Neo's jacket....I DID see that, OnFyre.

I also saw the doves in the red-dress-freeze scene. Very cool!

Sampson: You rock! Thanks for the shout out. . . it's nice to know others are listening. I don't mind discussing this, if it doesn't turn into an argument about right and wrong. THAT IS MY WHOLE ENTIRE BIG A** POINT! Morpheus says "You must try to stop seeing things as right or wrong . . ." When you divide a blief into sections that exclude this or that person/group simply because they don't in believe the book/creator/savior that you do, you create separateness and fear -- when you see that the entirety of ALLLLLLLLL (planet, rocks, trees, air, matter, and everything that isn't those things and the spaces in between those things) is the higher power and that is the source to which we all aspire (and from which we all eminate), there is no need to be separate from one another. If we are to move forward in our society, lives, etc., we must come to an understanding that our souls are connected and should try to work towards a common goal -- one that benefits the small and large, empty and whole, rich and poor; because that understanding of the WHOLE will make individual superiority a thing of the past and will steer us towards a world where all benefit in the bigger picture because it benefits EACH ONE OF US to positively effect our own experiences . . .

UH, I really didn't mean to spout off like that and I hope it's not too spastic to understand -- I promise I'm looking into getting a computer at home this weekend (Don't laugh -- I gave my old one to my Mom and haven't gotten a new one yet ) so that I can wax philosophic all I want and don't rish the wrath of my BOSS here at work!
Oh, and -- not that it matters -- but according to my birth certificate, and numerous eye-witnesses, I am of the female persuasion!

Trin3: I dig your insights -- I think we're on the same wavelenght. Also, I think the idea the "golden heart" on Neo's chest is just debris from the water is a real possibility. I've seen the film 6 times and can't figure out any DEEP meaning to it.

May I offer some opinions?!

Sampson: Glad to have you back for awhile. I think it takes a big man to tell everyone that he’s NOT a believer, but still take the time to listen and learn, especially after the start you had in this thread (no smoke or recriminations there, just praise!). And, as Mike has said before, coincidence is the language of God - maybe you’re SUPPOSED to be here, Sampson!

Neophile-: I’ve read the postings that you’ve made and the conversations that you’ve had with Mike, and it seems to me that God is NOT a stumbling block with you. You profess a belief in God - A God, THE God, EVERYBODY’S God. My impression is that “organized religion” (and the associated dogma of such) and/or Jesus is where the obstacles lay for you. Well, let me tell you that I know where you’re coming from (at least, I think I do!). Before I was a Christian, I had concerns with “organized religion”. Now that I’m a Christian, I STILL have concerns with “organized religion”! I personally don’t believe I have a RELIGION - as a Christian what I have is a personal, spiritual connection with The Almighty through Jesus. And to me, that’s far better and more intense than anything that “religion” could provide for me. To me “religion” is both impersonal and passive - Jesus is personal AND (as Mike calls it) interactive. And that’s a good situation to have when the Almighty wants to get a point across to you.
Now, as to Jesus......
I think the $64,000 question is, “Do you believe that Christ is the Son of God with all the Divinity and Authority of God?”. MY answer is probably pretty evident! :-) (and I KNOW what your answer is, OnFyre,...thank you!) However, if one’s answer is NO, then I can see where one would have an immense problem with Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.” And if that’s the case, then that’s fine - I’m certainly not here to argue and bash your belief system. All I can say is, Maybe one day you’ll say Yes! to that question (and collect your $64,000!). :-) Also, Neophile-, after reading these last couple of thoughts and maybe understanding where I’m coming from, you might be able to see that it’s not so much “close-mindedness” from OnFyre as it is the belief that Christ speaks with the authority of God when He says, “I am the way....”. And again, this is not the dogma of “organized religion” speaking - it comes from God (hopefully, the same God that we ALL believe in!).
Does this make sense? And have I read your postings correctly? If not, please let me know - believe me, I have two daughters that don’t hesitate AT ALL to let me know when I’m wrong, so I’m kinda used to it!

OnFyre,......I truly admire your passion for your beliefs (you’re about as “on the sleeve” as they get!). And as a Christian, I see the points you’re making and say, Amen. But when you try to force feed people, you gotta expect ‘em to throw up on you occasionally!

My apologies for being a little wordy, here, but........

Coincidence IS one of the languages of God.

I want to second Cecil’s remarks re: organized religion. This is from an email I sent recently:

“religion... i think that’s become the dirtiest word in the english language. it’s like the word “meek.” the archaic definition of meek is: kind; gentle. the modern definition is: spineless; weak. pejoration happens... and it's worse than sh_t! [maybe i should turn that into a bumper sticker]”

I go to church, but my beliefs aren’t defined by that building or the sign in front. On 042299 in part 2 of this thread I posted [in part]:

“I’ve got a personal relationship with someone I call God. It’s not a philosophy. It’s not a religion, patchwork or otherwise. It’s a deeply spiritual connection that results in two way communication out here in the physical world. I ask, seek, and knock [as per the instructions] and I get answers.”

I’m not knocking religious organizations and I don’t believe Cecil is either. I’m just saying that when others define me as “religious,” they’ve COMPLETELY misunderstood me.

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pejoration
[linguistics] The process by which the semantic status of a word changes for the worse, over a period of time. For example, egregious, which formerly meant “distinguished or remarkable,” has come to mean “conspicuously bad or flagrant.”
-- American Heritage Dictionary

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Trin3: I was thinking of the heart as more of an abstract representation. The shape you describe is the shape I remember seeing. The guys who made this film are artists. If it were simply a piece of debris, I would expect them to use more than one piece to reinforce the idea. But by placing it in the center of the protagonist’s chest, and to show it in only this one brief scene...

I think it’s safe to assume there’s some significance to this object.

Cecil: I got all fired up by your post and forgot to say so. Well said, friend.

And wordy? Heck, I wish you had more time to post. I'm a fan.

Trin3: Forgot to answer your question... Sacred Heart? That would seem to fit.

I threw out Metacortex and Heart O’ the City yesterday just to see if anyone would pick up on the symbolism. You know, does Neo think or feel his way?

Of course no one does one or the other exclusively. No one except...

Thinking alone is akin to the AI in this parable. Thinking compounded by twisted feeling [hate] is the ultimate villain, as Stealth111 deftly pointed out. The counterpoint has to be someone with a Heart of Gold. His vision has to be the Golden Dream. [we’ll see if I’m right about that in the third movie]

There is a way that object on his chest can be [symbolic] debris and still have meaning. It even has a name, of sorts...

The stone the builders rejected [Psalm 118:22]

What great reading these last 5 or 6 posts have been!

12321 and cecilc: You just can't separate "spiritual" from "religious" any more deftly than you two have done! Thank you and congrats for those posts! (12321, I DID go back and read your full post that you referred to). I, too, belive that the "common" MISconception about Christians is that they are thought to be (by definition, I guess) "religious"!
I've only seen this movie once (imagine that!), but I don't remember seeing any "religion" at work in the film, but there was a lot of "faith" at work here.
Carry on!

I agree with acrobat

12321,

I was wonderng where you were.

Lately I feel like one of them from "Close Encounter of the 3rd kind" where a group of average citizens suddenly were drawn to this clandestine 'HIGHER POWER=BEING'. is like They can't seem to figuer out what is happening to them, but they feel the dynamics of it and know how important it is to go on with the agenda. BTW I am not talking about extraterrestrials here.

"Every day people are straying away from church and going back to God."
-Lenny Bruce

I really enjoyed your reply, Cecilc -- it actually hit me just right. I agree that the problem may be in the definition of these problematic simplistic things we call words. Above all, I just want to say, it is the FEELING of that grander spirit in each of us that is of utmost importance. To experience our soul's desire (spiritually) because of a connection to God is the ultimate, and I THINK that ties into what you're saying.

Nicely said, Neophile-. And, yes, I think you've confirmed what I talked about in the first half of my post concerning God. Can you now address the second half of my post concerning Christ? I'm interested in your insights regarding His presence.

Okay sorry I gotta say it though

I have little interest in your $64,000 dollar question. I picked up my money at the desk and was pickpocketed on the way out cause I said we are all the childern of God and we all contain the Divinity and Authority of God.

Jesus is an excelent choice of a path back to this divinity though. It just isn't my path. I can't even really say that though. I have read some Christian mystisism and that is stuff is great. The Bible speaks volumes, but it has been so misinterpetted at times through history and even revised in ways that change the meaning. I like the red letter King James ver myself. These really new translations really cut into meaning in a way.

My only concern is that there are those who get all hairy and say Jesus is the only path to god and I say load of kaka. Hmmm some confrentation there... I hope if i say i don't agree in a nice way that we can get along well though

Onfyre could u please elaborate on neophiles imaginary god not judging her... because... it is imaginary...
I have had visions and i tell u many people have just cause they weren't in the bible or don't follow the bible doesn't mean they are imaginary.

We can learn here if we are willing to listen to eachother

Neophile i don't mind u speaking for me one bit

I have been trying to relate the themes of this film to the human condition, and specifically to my own understanding (or perception) of Truth and Reality; trying to describe this Life from a Matrix-based perspective. My journey on this path has barely begun, but let me see if I can put into words some of my initial insights.

I believe the Matrix is representative of this life. We perceive a reality that we cannot escape. Like Neo, we may sense the existence of an existence beyond this life. We may have visions, dreams, or revelations that provide an awareness of, or even a glimpse of, this other existence. However, these moments will always be as through a veil, clouded and partially obscured. We cannot see clearly because our eyes have not yet opened. If we remain alive and breathing, we are by definition bound to this Matrix; still “plugged in” so to speak. We are born into this condition, and remain so throughout our life (as defined by this reality).

This “other” existence is our Self as defined and created by God; it is our soul, our eternal being. The present physical manifestation of that soul is but a projection of my true spiritual self, just as for Neo, “Your appearance now is what we call residual self image. It is the mental projection of your digital self.”

Death is the only means by which we escape from the Matrix of this reality. Death is not an end of life, but only an end of my participation in this present “simulation”. Through death I will “unplug”, and experience for the first time the Truth. My eyes will finally be opened. I will know myself, my Self, as I really am (just as Neo did the moment he experienced awareness in the pod). I will see God, my creator, face to face, much as Neo saw Morpheus for the first time in the flesh.

My previous existence, my life in this present reality, will become as a dream. What of his Matrix reality did Neo carry with him out of the pod (a symbol of our physical, earthly existence)? Only his memories and experiences. His career, his belongings, his apartment, his identification; all were digital illusions. “I have these memories from my life. None of them happened.” What we experience in this life is not real, in the sense of eternal or everlasting. All is transitory. Yet all is not without meaning or significance!

It was through Neo’s digital existence that he experienced an awareness of the truth, pursued this awareness, and ultimately responded to the invitation (the red pill). What, then, is the purpose for this present reality, this Matrix?

More to come…

:-) Sampson, you and I get along just fine! :-)

But you gotta help me understand something, Sampson. Why does Christ scare people so badly? We talk about God,...yeah, that's OK! People like God, beieve in God, want to BE God. But,....bring Christ into the picture,...whoa, it's clam up time! I'm just not getting it, Sampson,...help me out!

Once upon a time, a guy named Cecil saw a movie and thought, “Gee! That story sure seemed like the story of the Messiah.” And he said so in public.

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No one claims this movie proves or disproves any particular belief system. The idea in this thread [The Matrix as Messiah Movie] is that the movie appears to parallel the story of Jesus. Yes [for the umpteenth time] there are other influences, but to the guy who opened this thread, the story of Christ seemed to stand out. That’s what brought many of us here. We think so too.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I sure would like to return to the topic. And as I said a little while back: “Each of us has our own truths and beliefs and questions, and it’s good to discuss and share ‘em, but that isn’t the primary topic of this thread. Maybe if we recognize and allow for these differences while we explore the Messiah theme, we’ll all see something new.”

What is the purpose of trashing opposing viewpoints?

To those who feel it their calling to do so, may I suggest opening a topic entitled “My belief system can beat up your belief system.”

I think this forum is a tremendous opportunity to explore ideas. I desperately want to return to that quixotic place we seemed to discover before the bickering set in.

I’m as guilty as anyone. I got sucked into it too. I’m sorry.

Now, if anyone has an objection to returning to the theme, tell me what it is. If your objection is, “But that guy called my belief system a pile of poo poo.” SO WHAT? Not everyone is going to agree with you or you or you or me. SO WHAT? We’re not here to agree. We’re here to explore. And the topic of this thread is The Matrix as Messiah Movie.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE IN A MESSIAH TO EXPLORE OR TAKE PART.

It’s just an idea, people. Enjoy it as a thought experiment if nothing else.

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Once upon a time, a guy named Cecil saw a movie and thought, “Gee! That story sure seemed like the story of the Messiah.” And he said so in public.

----- ----- -----

No one claims this movie proves or disproves any particular belief system. The idea in this thread [The Matrix as Messiah Movie] is that the movie appears to parallel the story of Jesus. Yes [for the umpteenth time] there are other influences...

[repeat as needed]

Point made,...hint taken to heart! Whatever happened to that guy, Cecil?!

Along the line of this thread (a wry grin here!), I'm going to see the movie again tommorrow. Among several things I'm going to look for is the piece of "whatever" on Neo's chest as he's hauled up out of the water toward the Neb.

Loved your post, tracer.

Thanks, Mike!

Here is a complete version of what I started a few posts back. Pardon the partial repetition, but I made a few changes and wanted to present my thoughts as a single, connected stream.

I have been trying to relate the theme of this film to the human condition, and specifically to my own understanding (or perception) of Truth and reality; trying to describe this life from a Matrix-based perspective. My journey on this path has barely begun, but let me see if I can put into words some of my initial insights.

I believe the Matrix is representative of this worldly life. We perceive a reality from which we cannot escape. Like Neo, we may sense the existence of an existence beyond this life. We may have visions, dreams, or revelations that provide an awareness of, or even a glimpse of, this other existence. However, these moments will always be as through a veil, clouded and partially obscured. We cannot see clearly because our eyes are not yet opened; and much as we may be philosophically open to the Truth, full realization is impossible. It is not enough to want it, and we remain unsatisfied even if we seek it. If we are alive and breathing, we are by definition still bound to this Matrix; still “plugged in” so to speak. We are born into this condition, and remain so throughout our life (in the temporal/mortal sense).

This “other” existence is our Self as defined and created by God; it is our soul, our eternal being. The present physical manifestation of that soul is but a projection, a DNA-based hologram, of my true spiritual self. As Morpheus explained to Neo, “Your appearance now is what we call residual self image. It is the mental projection of your digital self.”

Death is the only means by which we are released from the Matrix of this reality. Death is not an end of life, but only an end of my participation in this present “simulation”. Through death I will “unplug”, and experience for the first time the Truth. My eyes will finally be opened. I will know myself, my true Self, as I really am, just as Neo did the moment he experienced awareness in the pod. I will see God, my creator, face to face, much in the same way that Neo was greeted by Morpheus for the first time in the flesh. “Welcome to the real world…”

My previous existence, my life in this present reality, will become as a dream. What of his Matrix reality did Neo carry with him out of the pod (a symbol of our physical, earthly existence)? Only his memories and experiences. His career, his belongings, his apartment, his identification; all were digital illusions. “I have these memories from my life. None of them happened.” What we experience in this life is not real, in the sense of eternal or everlasting. All is transitory. Yet all is not without meaning or significance!

It was through Neo’s digital existence that he experienced an awareness of the truth, pursued this awareness, and ultimately responded to the invitation to commit himself to the truth (the red pill). What, then, is the purpose for this present reality, this Matrix? I believe it is an opportunity to pursue the awareness of Himself (the splinter in our mind) that God has planted in the heart of each of us. Romans 1: 19, “because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.” It is an opportunity to seek God, and respond to His invitation to enter into a relationship with Him.

For this reason, everything we experience in this reality is significant; not in and of itself, but because of where it leads us. We experience love so that we may come to understand God’s love for us. We experience suffering so that we may understand the significance of the Cross. We experience loss in order to understand the anguish of separation from God. We are given the opportunity to make decisions and experience the consequences in order to understand the nature of sin and wrath. We are given the opportunity to forgive others in order to understand the grace of God.

Most importantly, we are given the opportunity to make a choice; do we accept the invitation and follow the white rabbit (the Lamb of God)? This decision is the primary purpose for our entire existence in this Matrix. This decision determines which reality we will experience as a spiritual being for all eternity. Matthew 25: 46, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” And, like Neo, we must make this decision with our eyes still closed (but our mind open)! We must make this decision as one still plugged into the Matrix, without all the answers, without certainty of what the Truth is. Because of this, it is a decision of faith. WHO DO YOU TRUST? Think about it; what caused Neo to heed the advice of a cryptic and unexplainable message on his computer screen? What caused him to stay in a car with strangers who were pointing a gun in his face? What caused him to take the red pill? I say again, WHO DO YOU TRUST?

So, fellow coppertops, what are we to do? 2 Corinthians 4: 18, “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” If you are reading this, your journey has already begun…

What is a Messiah? Seriously.

Neo isn't "redeeming" the "sins" ot the podpeople, is he?

Messiah as Hero......leader? Source of All?

Or is that His Father?

His? Such sexist anthropomorphism eh ? :-)

Yes of course the Matrix encompasses much that is Messianic in it's imagry/metaphor.......but I believe the movie is something *more/else*.

nilent,...
If you're looking for a "book" definition of Messiah (of course, you're going to get the references to BOTH Judaism and Christianity in that definition!), but another definition means "any expected savior or liberator of a people, country, etc." (this according to Mr. Webster!)
So I think you're right that, NO, Neo is not actually "redeeming" any "sin" in the podpeople. However, in this case, he is playing the role of "liberator" because he has become freer to walk inside the Matrix without fear (a little "of the world but not part of the world" sort of thing!) to help people wake up and live a "real" life! Now, that "real" life may not be as comfortable as the "pod" life (witness Cypher!), but at least these people will know reality! So I think the Messiah label for Neo still holds up!
Cecil out

nilent: The Messiah is the one who is able to do something that no one else can. In breaking free, this individual is then able to free others.

The movie doesn’t skirt this issue. One guy has to open the door. No one else can do it. The guy who does it is the Messiah.

Make sense?

That others don’t like this interpretation is puzzling to me. If Cecil had called this “The Matrix as Hero Movie” no one would have objected. But to link the Hero to Christ sets people off. Go figure.

Oops, didn't see you get in ahead of me, Cecil. Sorry for the repetition.

hmmm

I can say right off the top of my head that many organizations have put alot of energy into undermining Jesus and his message. Since they have succeeded in many ways they have been fertalizing this fear and trying to make it grow.

I for one would love to meet Jesus in human form. I think we could go have a beautiful picnic in the park or something like that.

I think he would be realy easy to get along with

nilent: One more thing. The story of the Messiah is about reunification with the Source. It’s about the end of one stage of existence and the beginning of another. It’s about the conquest of death and the beginning of life everlasting.

Try to push aside “religious” notions, translate that into terms you’re more comfortable with, and tell me, please. What is *more* than that?

And about that “*more* than that” question... I’m not trying to be a smart-as_, I’m a