Author Topic:   The Matrix as Messiah Movie Part 3
cecilc
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posted 04-27-99 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

As per requests,...we start Part 3 of this thread. Thanks for the suggestion ... it was needed!

For the original thread:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html

For Part II:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000750.html

To all,...Thanks!

acrobat
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posted 04-27-99 07:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

OnFyre4God!

I like your style, friend!
There is but ONE Jesus! ONE way!

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He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-27-99 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

GUESS I TOUCHED A NERVE! Didn't mean to offend, if I did, but I'm glad to hear from everyone!

OnFyre4God:
Okay -- message received loud and clear. You may not want to ruffle feathers, but when you proclaim that the only way to believe is YOUR way, it sorta gets me going.
First of all, I want to say that faith as strong as yours in ANY form is a powerful and wonderful thing -- there is nothing better in this world than spreading positivity and understanding of the higher power. I just don't subscribe to the idea that there is BUT ONE religion that is COMPLETELY correct. I'm not doubting Christ's teachings, just whether or not he was the only one who had anything valuable to say. I think it becomes dangerous when we start eliminating other people from grace and truth and compassion just because they don't read the Bible, or whatever. It's the divisiveness in our world that causes people to kill one another over things like borders, holy teachings, even slams on high school kids with little or no reverence for their life or anyone else's. If we are to find a way to come together and heal, we must stop fighting fire with fire -- the only way to combat an absence (evil) is with a presence (faith). I have faith and know that my God NEVER judges me (or anyone else) according to what book he/she reads or what church he/she attends.

I HAVE taken the red pill, and it opened my eyes to the beauty that is ALL around us. "The answer is out there Neo, it's looking for you. And it will find you, if you want it to."

12321:
I guess my doctrine can be summed up like this: I believe there was/is/has always been one all-encompassing higher power (GOD). That higher power, being perfection, could not know itself as perfect because it had no reference point (you can't know what's hot if you don't know cold -- you can't know perfection unless you know imperfection). Therefore, it created us as individual aspects of itself by which it could experience all the limits of every emotion and experience known and unknown. Each of us is bound to the higher power by its representation in each of us, our souls.

Our lives are spent experiencing things that lead us to the knowledge of who we really are -- (which is to say, an actual component of the ultimate higher power - i.e., a candle in the sun) and to the realization that we are all capable of affecting the greater force by our thoughts, words, and deeds. Mind - body - spirit; my personal trinity. What you put out there to the universe is what you will get back.

I simply do not believe organized religion can even begin to touch on how big the picture really is. God is the ALL, the here and the there, the seen and the unseen, the space in between empty spaces -- he doesn't care if you pray according to Judiasm, Christianity, Catholocism, Taoism, Buddhism, in your back yard, Native American beliefs, etc., etc., We have to stop sticking people in round or square holes like pegs. There is no spoon -- free your mind.

BTW I recently read a book that changed my life (literally) and it completely sums up what I am (rather poorly) trying to say. It is "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch. I know, I know, most of you are probably rolling your eyes (I hope not!) If you want a really enlightening look at a very engaging new (or not so new) idea, give it a read (you may have to turn off the organized religion part of your brain for a spell tho! ).

Sorry to babble on so much! Thanks for the feedback -- I HONESTLY think this thread and ALL the things being expressed here are fascinating and I have agreed with SO MUCH of what has been said. And I am in total agreement with the parallels to the biblical teachings. Please don't think I'm trying to stir something up. This movie was such a completely amazing piece of work, I'm glad other people got as much out of it as I did!

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Neophile -~-

12321
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posted 04-27-99 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Thanks, Cecil.

And I’m not sure if this is a tip or something you all know about or already do [get to the point, Mike] but if you open those other threads and save them as source you’ve got easy access to the Messiah Movie post archives and can read ‘em off line.

Now back to the movie... I’m gonna see it for the third time this Sunday. No note pad or tape recorder this time. Just sit back and enjoy. One of the many details I’m gonna watch for is the golden heart.

After Neo is flushed from his pod, the Neb deploys a line and lifts him into the ship. A pool of water remains on Neo’s chest [sternum] and seemed to shine with an odd intensity... the color and the shape made me think it may have been an intentional element. I’d not noticed it the first time. Did anyone else see this or was I seeing something that wasn’t really there?

Neophile-: You think and feel deeply. That you care and don’t wish to offend is just as obvious. But you can’t point a finger without poking yourself in the eye. It’s like gravity. You drop a rock, it’s gonna hit the ground. This is one of the things that Jesus [among others] tried to explain.

To you, OnFyre’s beliefs are divisive. You point out why. Then you say your truth.

For the most part, the people here are truth seekers. We want to know. We say that we’d say yes to the red pill. Heck, most of us, myself included, have claimed to have already taken it.

We’re all definitely full of something, and it sure ain’t red pills.

Each of us has our own truths and beliefs and questions, and it’s good to discuss and share ‘em, but that isn’t the primary topic of this thread. Maybe if we recognize and allow for these differences while we explore the Messiah theme, we’ll all see something new.

And if any of us claim to have all the answers, he/she better be prepared to back that up by flying overhead.

Does this sound reasonable?

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

tracer
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posted 04-27-99 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer     

12321: Yes, I saw the "golden heart" you refer to. I have noticed it all four times, and have wondered as to its significance or meaning. I'm not convinced it is a pool of water, but I have no alternate suggestion to offer. Puzzling...

12321
Member
posted 04-27-99 10:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

tracer: The pool of water was just a guess. It may have been an object affixed to Reeves for this single scene. If it's water, it'll move when they move him. I'll watch close.

If it's not water, this's really an interesting element.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-27-99 11:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

12321:
Yeah, I guess I finally get your point (I wasn't listening well enough before -- sorry!) This thread is specifically about the link to the Messiah; gotcha now! Thanks!

I'm going on my sixth viewing of the film and I still can't figure out what that thing is on Neo's chest. I thought it was just one of the places one of the "plugs" hooked in, but he has two of those on his chest, to either side, not one in the middle. I just don't know! I'll go again this weekend and see if I can "divine" ( ) anything substantial!

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Neophile -~-

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-27-99 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

I must be getting old, I swear I submitted this reply, but it never showed up!
Anyway . . .
12321:
My brain finally clicked into what you've been saying -- this thread in particular is only about the Messiah aspect of the movie. I just got sidetracked on my own thang -- sorry.

As for the golden heart thing, I have seen the film 6 times and I still don't know what it is. I thought it was one of the "plug-in" ports, but he had two of those on his chest and in the scene you're questioning there is only one, right in the middle. Looks like a makeup mistake, but I'm sure that's impossible in this movie -- it must be dripping with meaning somehow!

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Neophile -~-

Neophile-
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posted 04-27-99 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

You know, I hate it when the computer makes you look like a total idiot (not that I don't do a good enough job myself). Sorry 'bout the double entry!

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Neophile -~-

Metaconstrux
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posted 04-27-99 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Metaconstrux     

Lots of people have pointed out that Neo is a christ figure, that Judeo-Cristian images and themes constanty crop up in the movie, and that the types of resurections, revelations, and betrayals central to the New Testament are also central to The Matrix.

These discussions place the movie BACK into a conventional context in which it can be understood (and partially dismissed -- ohh, another Christ image, how trite.) Perhaps it is more useful to see how the movie comments on religion and how history and religion operate in the Matrix. Let's take an inside out perspective on things, shall we?

The movie seems to suggest that before the triumph of the AI, history existed as we know it, and that the world of the matrix is a perfect replica of 1999 (Sydney, Australia!).
But remember -- nothing in the matrix REALLY exists, especially history. History contructs the Matrix's notions of truth, past, cause, effect, and justifications. These notions are UNREAL twice over. They are still part of the AI programming, and they are PAST, gone, unverifiable. History exists even less than breakfast cereal in the Matrix. So to have 'bibles' 'churches' and other historically determined symbols in the assembly language of society is to create 'relics' that are avaliable to be picked up and used by those who would wish to resist that society.

The AI, by precisely reproducing the present moment, have relinquished control over that moment's history. We know that we can use the scraps of programming language lying around in the Matrix to resist the AI (guns, telephones, subway trains, etc.) To resist the AI you need to recombine the elements within the Matrix and weild them against their makers.

This is why religion and mysticism are so important in processes of resistance: you can use the power of these metaphors and archtypal constructs to advance your agenda.
Neo HAS to be a hero -- he that goes beyond and comes back to enlighten the deluded (like Plato's metaphore of the cave, or the Buddha's transcendence and return, or Christ's death and resurection). Notions of moving beyond the limited consciousness of our existence are FUNDAMENTALLY religious in nature. You could refuse to draw on these metaphors, and make Neo into a renegade Schwartzenegger figure, but then you strip him of his justification as the ONE to save AND enlighten MILLIONS of people. (Just like refusing to draw on the programming language that makes bullets would render our renegade hero pretty damn powerless.)

So Zion must be Zion -- a promised land that may survive because humans have sought to establish and defend Zion throughout all of 'history.' Trinity must in a sense be THE Trinity (even though most guy's think that the 'Trinity' or GOD is a man) so that she can speak down to her beloved and raise him from the dead. And Neo must be the ONE, tapping into the mythos of the construct in order to effectively alter it. If a significant part of the population is actively waiting for the Second Comming and the rest is a little nervous of the posability because they can not reject it outright, why not USE that image? Why not USE religion just as one uses martial arts -- as a focusing of the mind to transcend the world and alter it effectively?

Of course, more is at work here than just a calculated invocation of the religious that is meant to destroy the AI. The oracle's words are powerful and true even in the Real (aparently not simulated) World. Trinity can somehow speak to Neo from across the divide. Which brings us to my next point.

In _this_ real world, when telling a story about resistence and social transformation, why not USE religion as a dominant metaphor to persuade and captivate your audiences? As a movie maker at the ass end of the twentieth century, what conventions may you employ, what collectively held beliefs and knowledge can you reference to move your audience? Religion is key.

So for all those who would criticise the Matrix as JUST another religious alegory, I would only say -- The Matrix makes everything into allegory. Everything represents something else. All symbols may be USED as symbols, as cascading streams of green pouring dawn across a screen. Nothing is absolute or fixed. No destiny, no reality, AND NO RELIGION. All may be used to see the truer truth of our condition. In this context all that is meaningless once more becomes meaningFULL. The Matrix references MANY religious concepts from Kirkagard's leap of faith to a Buddhist sunyata or emptiness. And it is ultimately through these concepts and NOT through the bullets that resistence is achieved. So the moral of the story:

Don't throw away any potentially useful ways of knowing (just as you wouldn't throw away any perfectly good M-16s) that you may find on the path. Because walking the path is moving through symbolic systems, ways of knowing, subways, lobbies, and other simulated and unreal things that amazingly and mystically always bring one closer to an ultimate truth.

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Those who believe in substantiality are like cows;
those who believe in emptiness are worse.
- Saraha (9th cent. CE)

12321
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posted 04-27-99 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Metaconstrux: I’ve gotta read that about a dozen more times before I can even hope to offer an intelligible comment.

Neophile-: You heard. I’m impressed. You’ve got passion, and that’s a precious thing, but it’s sometimes hard to listen when the passion is flowing. Scroll back and you’ll see that I’ve gotten sidetracked on my own thang a few times too. [especially in the original Imagery and Metaphor thread] Don’t sweat it.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Neophile-
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posted 04-27-99 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

Metaconstrux: AMEN BROTHER!

12321: Thanks!

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Neophile -~-

Stealth111
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posted 04-27-99 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stealth111     

Re: Neo as Christ figure...

Anybody notice that Agent Smith is the only one who "hates." The other agents are merely programs meant to carry out a function. They go after Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, and the like simply because that is their function. No good or evil attached to it. But Agent Smith is the only one who has "evolved" emotion of the three...that emotion being "hate." The perfect anti-Christ figure. But also the most human of the three agents (again the trinity shows up).

Just a random thought....

PeaCe

12321
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posted 04-27-99 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Stealth111: About that “evolved” notion...

Smith sends the other two agents away, takes out his earpiece [hardwire connection to the Matrix?] and gives Morpheus the “I’m going to be honest with you” speech [filled with his own hate and “needs”] while Neo and Trinity begin blasting their way in.

Then the other two agents return to the room:

Agent Brown [to Smith]: What were you doing?
Agent Jones [seeing the disconnected ear piece]: He doesn't know.
Agent Smith [putting his earpiece back in]: Know what?

Three agents. Nine words. Dual meanings.

Good observation, Stealth.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 04-27-99 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

It's incredible to me how "random thoughts" turn into gems in this thread! Wow!...

Of course, this leads into MY random thinking! First off, let me say that my latest thinkings are NOT,...I repeat,...NOT to dismiss or repute or disparage or in any way, shape, or form cut into Mike's ideas regarding the end of the movie being a prelude to the 2nd coming! But I've had an inkling in this direction.....
Suppose instead of the 2nd coming, we begin to move into the Book of Acts? The Word now needs to be spread within the Matrix that you CAN be SAVED - IF YOU WANT TO! You can be released from the bondage that you REALLY live in and be free! And to do that, you have to talk to this particular group (our favorite group!), because that's the ONLY way for you to be saved! No one else can do it! You certainly can't do it on your own - you need help!
So,...are we headed for the "...no one comes to the Father but through me." parallel, too?!
And,...and...how will the general population of the Matrix respond to that message?!
As always,...I can't wait for comments!

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Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
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posted 04-27-99 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Cecil: That’s quite a disclaimer you’ve got there. And that’s a really good connection you’re making. I agree, I can see it clearly, and it makes sense, except for one thing...

Seems like there’s gonna be a knock-down, drag-out fight between the two factions in the third movie [if the second’s a prequel] and that means somebody’s gonna lose big time.

You see where I’m going with this?

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ev
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posted 04-28-99 01:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ev     

Just saw this amazing film for the first time -- wow. I've read through this thread and appreciate the thoughtful discussion happening here.

I noticed mention of this once before but didn't notice any follow-up or replies: the children of Zion (those never 'plugged in'). I thought these could represent the Jewish people - those in original covenant with God. Any thoughts on this?

12321
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posted 04-28-99 06:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Ev: I think that’s a pretty cool explanation, especially considering how others have linked Abraham to Morpheus’ “When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth.“

Maybe I’m not getting some obvious connection, but that just doesn’t feel right.

“When the Matrix was first built...” In the movie, Morpheus says that’s mid 21st century. In this thread, it would be... when? The expulsion from the Garden? The original covenant with God? About two thousand years ago? Sometime in this century? Sometime in our future?

If we accept the fact that allegories do break down at certain points, this may or may not be one of those examples. Each time I shift my reference frame to ponder those questions, answers appear, as do new questions.

The only answer that fits [for me] is one that can’t be bound by the concept of linear time. And that makes it real hard to put into words right now. I’ll keep using 3 in 1 Oil to lubricate my heart and soul to help my mind find the words to bridge this gap. Until then, I leave this for you to ponder and ask others to comment as well.

----- ----- -----

Metacortex
Heart O’ the City

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

OnFyre4God
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posted 04-28-99 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OnFyre4God   Click Here to Email OnFyre4God     

On Gold: I didn't notice anything on Neo's chest, but there was apart where I noticed Morpheus wearing a gold neclace of some sort. Also, notice that Neo's jacket, the agent's jackets, and maybe others that I didn't notice are underlaid with gold material.

On the "deployed line" that picked up Neo: Didn't it seem like "the heavens were opened" when the line came down? Also, the square hatch that opened for the "deployed line" was surrounded by three circles. The square and the circles all emitted an intense bright light.

Neophile:
1) I 'm not saying my way is the only way. I'm saying that JESUS is the only way, that's not my philosophy, that is God's Truth!

2) Your absolutely right, your god will never judge you, because your god does not exist. Your god is a figment of your imagination. If you will display you e-mail address or e-mail me, we can discuss this by that route. Otherwise, I will continue to respond to your pholosophies via this forum. (and I really don't wan't to waste anymore room in here.)

Bye-bye now!

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Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand!

Only One God

Vims
Member
posted 04-29-99 02:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vims     

Like, so what is red and what is blue?
by Edwin Chan, a friend of mine ...

What is red
and who is blue
the Pimpernel;
my jilted honey-poo.

My honey-poo is all upset
`cos she sees just one ol' hue.
It's true!

Anyway, like seriously
is it that you're getting at
us men, we see too much?
Like, I'm the sculptor man
I sez, just stand back
and see, don't touch!

Comparing a Polish-pair auteur
to shiftless human memory;
Reducing the mechanics of critique
to trite and visual generality
is brave to say the least.

Red and blue
`tis blood and glory
`tis Plato and rhetoric;
`Tis gender, morality,
good and evil
`Tis everything most basic.

In short, I'll have to say,
my Zen-surfing poetic friend -
leave the post-modern theories to
those who CAN pretend.

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-29-99 06:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

OnFyre:
Uh, okay -- whatever. If you want to be that closed-minded, that's your biz. I have a very close relationship with GOD -- which, by the way, there is ONLY ONE OF. My God DOES exist because I exist. I am a part of God (which, by the way, is EVERYBODY'S God) . . . we are all created from that source -- Do you get what I'm saying? Probably not. But, that's cool. I don't want to waste any more time with this here either. . . but I'll end with this:
My point (and problem with one-sided thinking) is that organized religion (or people who claim THEIR way/savior/whatever is the ONLY way) are like Cypher eating that steak. He only knew it tasted delicious because the "system" told him so. There were infinite possibilities out there, and infinite ways for him to experience that steak, but he chose the path of "ignorance is bliss." Others of us that see the bigger picture realize that we don't need someone to tell us the steak tastes good; we just need the nourishment of the "goop," because it has everything the body (soul) needs, and if we are truly enlightened, we don't need to be told by someone else what it tastes like . . . it has infinite possibilities (Tasty Wheat, runny eggs, snot, whatever). I wish you well, my friend -- but I'm afraid the Matrix has you.

Morpheus: "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

FREE YOUR MIND.

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Neophile -~-

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-29-99 06:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

OnFyre:
Uh, okay -- whatever. If you want to be that closed-minded, that's your biz. I have a very close relationship with GOD -- which, by the way, there is ONLY ONE OF. My God DOES exist because I exist. I am a part of God (which, by the way, is EVERYBODY'S God) . . . we are all created from that source -- Do you get what I'm saying? Probably not. But, that's cool. I don't want to waste any more time with this here either. . . but I'll end with this:
My point (and problem with one-sided thinking) is that organized religion (or people who claim THEIR way/savior/whatever is the ONLY way) are like Cypher eating that steak. He only knew it tasted delicious because the "system" told him so. There were infinite possibilities out there, and infinite ways for him to experience that steak, but he chose the path of "ignorance is bliss." Others of us that see the bigger picture realize that we don't need someone to tell us the steak tastes good; we just need the nourishment of the "goop," because it has everything the body (soul) needs, and if we are truly enlightened, we don't need to be told by someone else what it tastes like . . . it has infinite possibilities (Tasty Wheat, runny eggs, snot, whatever). I wish you well, my friend -- but I'm afraid the Matrix has you.

Morpheus: "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

FREE YOUR MIND.

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Neophile -~-

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-29-99 07:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

OnFyre:
Uh, okay -- whatever. If you want to be that closed-minded, that's your biz. I have a very close relationship with GOD -- which, by the way, there is ONLY ONE OF. My God DOES exist because I exist. I am a part of God (which, by the way, is EVERYBODY'S God) . . . we are all created from that source -- Do you get what I'm saying? Probably not. But, that's cool. I don't want to waste any more time with this here either. . . but I'll end with this:
My point (and problem with one-sided thinking) is that organized religion (or people who claim THEIR way/savior/whatever is the ONLY way) are like Cypher eating that steak. He only knew it tasted delicious because the "system" told him so. There were infinite possibilities out there, and infinite ways for him to experience that steak, but he chose the path of "ignorance is bliss." Others of us that see the bigger picture realize that we don't need someone to tell us the steak tastes good; we just need the nourishment of the "goop," because it has everything the body (soul) needs, and if we are truly enlightened, we don't need to be told by someone else what it tastes like . . . it has infinite possibilities (Tasty Wheat, runny eggs, snot, whatever). I wish you well, my friend -- but I'm afraid the Matrix has you.

Morpheus: "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

FREE YOUR MIND.

------------------
Neophile -~-

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-29-99 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

I know I was trying to make a point, but I really DIDN'T mean to post that three times -- sorry!!!

12321
Member
posted 04-29-99 08:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Neophile-: Doesn’t that hurt?

Remember this [from 04-27-99 09:36 AM]: You think and feel deeply. That you care and don’t wish to offend is just as obvious. But you can’t point a finger without poking yourself in the eye. It’s like gravity. You drop a rock, it’s gonna hit the ground. This is one of the things that Jesus [among others] tried to explain.

Do you understand how this is true?

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-29-99 09:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

12321:
Kinda like "judge not, lest ye be judged?"
I think I get it - I think. I think, therefore I am, confused. I just don't wanna fight with people about how only one view can be right. Maybe I'll just go hang in the "Didja Ever Wanna Squeeze a Weasel" board for awhile and unwind my mind! I do, however, truly value the words and thoughts that have been given -- thanks for hangin' in there with me.

Sampson
Member
posted 04-29-99 09:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

Onfire
whatso ever do you mean by saying neophile's god is only in his imagination?

Did someone brainwash u big time?

12321
I agree yes. Tis basically the message.
But, look who is pointing the fingure.
I don't think Neophile is.
He got dragged in maybe by fire boy, but that will happen. Atleast he is trying to comunicate.

Onfire boy and Neophile
I don't want to be a bother, but i am interested in hearing what u both have to say
I don't think it would be a waiste of our time. I mean part of the debate is about the bible here and people's belief systems.
Yes they did have biblical themes in mind very much so when they made the movie, but we can still dicuss these things

Onfire
I am interested in your opinions on Muslim beliefs and Jewish in particular because they have their roots in the same area.

Neophile
I love yur beliefs there
they are pretty much one in the same with mine

You know you know when u can feel the finger in your own eye when u point it at others.

guys love u all

Sampsonator

cecilc
I had left for awhile cause i don't really share these biblical be all and end all stuff, but maybe there is some value to me to come here

Trin3
Member
posted 04-29-99 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trin3     

Without getting into it TOO much, I'd like to add my two cents to what OnFyre and Neophile have been discussing. I see where OnFyre is coming from and I know that that intensity of faith must be incredible. However, it sets me back when humans claim to KNOW what is right and what isn't. Who is to say that we are not ALL interpreting these things (the bible, religion, etc.) wrongly? I think it is important that we try to see that God might have come to different people in different ways/forms....in ways to which they could relate. But then again, I_could_be_wrong.

Now to what I was originally going to post...
I saw it AGAIN last night (3rd time, couldn't resist). Just as great as ever. I saw the pool-of-water-heart thing. To me, it looks like a stretch. It's not water, that's obvious. It looks more like a leaf or some other trash out of the sewer...and it is not really in the shape of a heart...more like a triangle (Trinity?) with round corners. But it is definatley smack in the middle of his chest and couldn't be there for no reason. If it is supposed to represent a golden heart, what is the significance? Sacred Heart?

And the gold in Neo's jacket....I DID see that, OnFyre.

I also saw the doves in the red-dress-freeze scene. Very cool!

Another thing that got me saying hmmmm:
My friend (OS) gets credit for this one. She said, "Don't you think Trinity and Neo look a lot alike?" Hmmmm...........

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-29-99 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

Sampson: You rock! Thanks for the shout out. . . it's nice to know others are listening. I don't mind discussing this, if it doesn't turn into an argument about right and wrong. THAT IS MY WHOLE ENTIRE BIG A** POINT! Morpheus says "You must try to stop seeing things as right or wrong . . ." When you divide a blief into sections that exclude this or that person/group simply because they don't in believe the book/creator/savior that you do, you create separateness and fear -- when you see that the entirety of ALLLLLLLLL (planet, rocks, trees, air, matter, and everything that isn't those things and the spaces in between those things) is the higher power and that is the source to which we all aspire (and from which we all eminate), there is no need to be separate from one another. If we are to move forward in our society, lives, etc., we must come to an understanding that our souls are connected and should try to work towards a common goal -- one that benefits the small and large, empty and whole, rich and poor; because that understanding of the WHOLE will make individual superiority a thing of the past and will steer us towards a world where all benefit in the bigger picture because it benefits EACH ONE OF US to positively effect our own experiences . . .

UH, I really didn't mean to spout off like that and I hope it's not too spastic to understand -- I promise I'm looking into getting a computer at home this weekend (Don't laugh -- I gave my old one to my Mom and haven't gotten a new one yet ) so that I can wax philosophic all I want and don't rish the wrath of my BOSS here at work!
Oh, and -- not that it matters -- but according to my birth certificate, and numerous eye-witnesses, I am of the female persuasion!

Trin3: I dig your insights -- I think we're on the same wavelenght. Also, I think the idea the "golden heart" on Neo's chest is just debris from the water is a real possibility. I've seen the film 6 times and can't figure out any DEEP meaning to it.

------------------
Neophile -~-

cecilc
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posted 04-29-99 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

May I offer some opinions?!

Sampson: Glad to have you back for awhile. I think it takes a big man to tell everyone that he’s NOT a believer, but still take the time to listen and learn, especially after the start you had in this thread (no smoke or recriminations there, just praise!). And, as Mike has said before, coincidence is the language of God - maybe you’re SUPPOSED to be here, Sampson!

Neophile-: I’ve read the postings that you’ve made and the conversations that you’ve had with Mike, and it seems to me that God is NOT a stumbling block with you. You profess a belief in God - A God, THE God, EVERYBODY’S God. My impression is that “organized religion” (and the associated dogma of such) and/or Jesus is where the obstacles lay for you. Well, let me tell you that I know where you’re coming from (at least, I think I do!). Before I was a Christian, I had concerns with “organized religion”. Now that I’m a Christian, I STILL have concerns with “organized religion”! I personally don’t believe I have a RELIGION - as a Christian what I have is a personal, spiritual connection with The Almighty through Jesus. And to me, that’s far better and more intense than anything that “religion” could provide for me. To me “religion” is both impersonal and passive - Jesus is personal AND (as Mike calls it) interactive. And that’s a good situation to have when the Almighty wants to get a point across to you.
Now, as to Jesus......
I think the $64,000 question is, “Do you believe that Christ is the Son of God with all the Divinity and Authority of God?”. MY answer is probably pretty evident! :-) (and I KNOW what your answer is, OnFyre,...thank you!) However, if one’s answer is NO, then I can see where one would have an immense problem with Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.” And if that’s the case, then that’s fine - I’m certainly not here to argue and bash your belief system. All I can say is, Maybe one day you’ll say Yes! to that question (and collect your $64,000!). :-) Also, Neophile-, after reading these last couple of thoughts and maybe understanding where I’m coming from, you might be able to see that it’s not so much “close-mindedness” from OnFyre as it is the belief that Christ speaks with the authority of God when He says, “I am the way....”. And again, this is not the dogma of “organized religion” speaking - it comes from God (hopefully, the same God that we ALL believe in!).
Does this make sense? And have I read your postings correctly? If not, please let me know - believe me, I have two daughters that don’t hesitate AT ALL to let me know when I’m wrong, so I’m kinda used to it!

OnFyre,......I truly admire your passion for your beliefs (you’re about as “on the sleeve” as they get!). And as a Christian, I see the points you’re making and say, Amen. But when you try to force feed people, you gotta expect ‘em to throw up on you occasionally!

My apologies for being a little wordy, here, but........

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
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posted 04-29-99 03:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Coincidence IS one of the languages of God.

I want to second Cecil’s remarks re: organized religion. This is from an email I sent recently:

“religion... i think that’s become the dirtiest word in the english language. it’s like the word “meek.” the archaic definition of meek is: kind; gentle. the modern definition is: spineless; weak. pejoration happens... and it's worse than sh_t! [maybe i should turn that into a bumper sticker]”

I go to church, but my beliefs aren’t defined by that building or the sign in front. On 042299 in part 2 of this thread I posted [in part]:

“I’ve got a personal relationship with someone I call God. It’s not a philosophy. It’s not a religion, patchwork or otherwise. It’s a deeply spiritual connection that results in two way communication out here in the physical world. I ask, seek, and knock [as per the instructions] and I get answers.”

I’m not knocking religious organizations and I don’t believe Cecil is either. I’m just saying that when others define me as “religious,” they’ve COMPLETELY misunderstood me.

----- ----- -----

pejoration
[linguistics] The process by which the semantic status of a word changes for the worse, over a period of time. For example, egregious, which formerly meant “distinguished or remarkable,” has come to mean “conspicuously bad or flagrant.”
-- American Heritage Dictionary

----- ----- -----

Trin3: I was thinking of the heart as more of an abstract representation. The shape you describe is the shape I remember seeing. The guys who made this film are artists. If it were simply a piece of debris, I would expect them to use more than one piece to reinforce the idea. But by placing it in the center of the protagonist’s chest, and to show it in only this one brief scene...

I think it’s safe to assume there’s some significance to this object.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
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posted 04-29-99 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Cecil: I got all fired up by your post and forgot to say so. Well said, friend.

And wordy? Heck, I wish you had more time to post. I'm a fan.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
Member
posted 04-29-99 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Trin3: Forgot to answer your question... Sacred Heart? That would seem to fit.

I threw out Metacortex and Heart O’ the City yesterday just to see if anyone would pick up on the symbolism. You know, does Neo think or feel his way?

Of course no one does one or the other exclusively. No one except...

Thinking alone is akin to the AI in this parable. Thinking compounded by twisted feeling [hate] is the ultimate villain, as Stealth111 deftly pointed out. The counterpoint has to be someone with a Heart of Gold. His vision has to be the Golden Dream. [we’ll see if I’m right about that in the third movie]

There is a way that object on his chest can be [symbolic] debris and still have meaning. It even has a name, of sorts...

The stone the builders rejected [Psalm 118:22]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

acrobat
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posted 04-29-99 07:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

What great reading these last 5 or 6 posts have been!

12321 and cecilc: You just can't separate "spiritual" from "religious" any more deftly than you two have done! Thank you and congrats for those posts! (12321, I DID go back and read your full post that you referred to). I, too, belive that the "common" MISconception about Christians is that they are thought to be (by definition, I guess) "religious"!
I've only seen this movie once (imagine that!), but I don't remember seeing any "religion" at work in the film, but there was a lot of "faith" at work here.
Carry on!

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

megapolis 2.0
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posted 04-29-99 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for megapolis 2.0   Click Here to Email megapolis 2.0     

I agree with acrobat

12321,

I was wonderng where you were.

Lately I feel like one of them from "Close Encounter of the 3rd kind" where a group of average citizens suddenly were drawn to this clandestine 'HIGHER POWER=BEING'. is like They can't seem to figuer out what is happening to them, but they feel the dynamics of it and know how important it is to go on with the agenda. BTW I am not talking about extraterrestrials here.

I am kind of at this place like that right now.... Like the message center just switched on the Advan-expand mode toggle.

Neophile-
Member
posted 04-30-99 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

"Every day people are straying away from church and going back to God."
-Lenny Bruce

I really enjoyed your reply, Cecilc -- it actually hit me just right. I agree that the problem may be in the definition of these problematic simplistic things we call words. Above all, I just want to say, it is the FEELING of that grander spirit in each of us that is of utmost importance. To experience our soul's desire (spiritually) because of a connection to God is the ultimate, and I THINK that ties into what you're saying.

Peace out.

cecilc
Member
posted 04-30-99 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Nicely said, Neophile-. And, yes, I think you've confirmed what I talked about in the first half of my post concerning God. Can you now address the second half of my post concerning Christ? I'm interested in your insights regarding His presence.

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

Sampson
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posted 04-30-99 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

Okay sorry I gotta say it though

I have little interest in your $64,000 dollar question. I picked up my money at the desk and was pickpocketed on the way out cause I said we are all the childern of God and we all contain the Divinity and Authority of God.

Jesus is an excelent choice of a path back to this divinity though. It just isn't my path. I can't even really say that though. I have read some Christian mystisism and that is stuff is great. The Bible speaks volumes, but it has been so misinterpetted at times through history and even revised in ways that change the meaning. I like the red letter King James ver myself. These really new translations really cut into meaning in a way.

My only concern is that there are those who get all hairy and say Jesus is the only path to god and I say load of kaka. Hmmm some confrentation there... I hope if i say i don't agree in a nice way that we can get along well though

Onfyre could u please elaborate on neophiles imaginary god not judging her... because... it is imaginary...
I have had visions and i tell u many people have just cause they weren't in the bible or don't follow the bible doesn't mean they are imaginary.

We can learn here if we are willing to listen to eachother

Neophile i don't mind u speaking for me one bit

Sampson Short hair and still truckin

tracer
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posted 04-30-99 02:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer     

I have been trying to relate the themes of this film to the human condition, and specifically to my own understanding (or perception) of Truth and Reality; trying to describe this Life from a Matrix-based perspective. My journey on this path has barely begun, but let me see if I can put into words some of my initial insights.

I believe the Matrix is representative of this life. We perceive a reality that we cannot escape. Like Neo, we may sense the existence of an existence beyond this life. We may have visions, dreams, or revelations that provide an awareness of, or even a glimpse of, this other existence. However, these moments will always be as through a veil, clouded and partially obscured. We cannot see clearly because our eyes have not yet opened. If we remain alive and breathing, we are by definition bound to this Matrix; still “plugged in” so to speak. We are born into this condition, and remain so throughout our life (as defined by this reality).

This “other” existence is our Self as defined and created by God; it is our soul, our eternal being. The present physical manifestation of that soul is but a projection of my true spiritual self, just as for Neo, “Your appearance now is what we call residual self image. It is the mental projection of your digital self.”

Death is the only means by which we escape from the Matrix of this reality. Death is not an end of life, but only an end of my participation in this present “simulation”. Through death I will “unplug”, and experience for the first time the Truth. My eyes will finally be opened. I will know myself, my Self, as I really am (just as Neo did the moment he experienced awareness in the pod). I will see God, my creator, face to face, much as Neo saw Morpheus for the first time in the flesh.

My previous existence, my life in this present reality, will become as a dream. What of his Matrix reality did Neo carry with him out of the pod (a symbol of our physical, earthly existence)? Only his memories and experiences. His career, his belongings, his apartment, his identification; all were digital illusions. “I have these memories from my life. None of them happened.” What we experience in this life is not real, in the sense of eternal or everlasting. All is transitory. Yet all is not without meaning or significance!

It was through Neo’s digital existence that he experienced an awareness of the truth, pursued this awareness, and ultimately responded to the invitation (the red pill). What, then, is the purpose for this present reality, this Matrix?

More to come…

------------------
"It's the question that drives us..."

cecilc
Member
posted 04-30-99 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

:-) Sampson, you and I get along just fine! :-)

But you gotta help me understand something, Sampson. Why does Christ scare people so badly? We talk about God,...yeah, that's OK! People like God, beieve in God, want to BE God. But,....bring Christ into the picture,...whoa, it's clam up time! I'm just not getting it, Sampson,...help me out!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
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posted 04-30-99 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Once upon a time, a guy named Cecil saw a movie and thought, “Gee! That story sure seemed like the story of the Messiah.” And he said so in public.

----- ----- -----

No one claims this movie proves or disproves any particular belief system. The idea in this thread [The Matrix as Messiah Movie] is that the movie appears to parallel the story of Jesus. Yes [for the umpteenth time] there are other influences, but to the guy who opened this thread, the story of Christ seemed to stand out. That’s what brought many of us here. We think so too.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I sure would like to return to the topic. And as I said a little while back: “Each of us has our own truths and beliefs and questions, and it’s good to discuss and share ‘em, but that isn’t the primary topic of this thread. Maybe if we recognize and allow for these differences while we explore the Messiah theme, we’ll all see something new.”

What is the purpose of trashing opposing viewpoints?

To those who feel it their calling to do so, may I suggest opening a topic entitled “My belief system can beat up your belief system.”

I think this forum is a tremendous opportunity to explore ideas. I desperately want to return to that quixotic place we seemed to discover before the bickering set in.

I’m as guilty as anyone. I got sucked into it too. I’m sorry.

Now, if anyone has an objection to returning to the theme, tell me what it is. If your objection is, “But that guy called my belief system a pile of poo poo.” SO WHAT? Not everyone is going to agree with you or you or you or me. SO WHAT? We’re not here to agree. We’re here to explore. And the topic of this thread is The Matrix as Messiah Movie.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE IN A MESSIAH TO EXPLORE OR TAKE PART.

It’s just an idea, people. Enjoy it as a thought experiment if nothing else.

----- ----- -----

Once upon a time, a guy named Cecil saw a movie and thought, “Gee! That story sure seemed like the story of the Messiah.” And he said so in public.

----- ----- -----

No one claims this movie proves or disproves any particular belief system. The idea in this thread [The Matrix as Messiah Movie] is that the movie appears to parallel the story of Jesus. Yes [for the umpteenth time] there are other influences...

[repeat as needed]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
Member
posted 04-30-99 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Point made,...hint taken to heart! Whatever happened to that guy, Cecil?!

Along the line of this thread (a wry grin here!), I'm going to see the movie again tommorrow. Among several things I'm going to look for is the piece of "whatever" on Neo's chest as he's hauled up out of the water toward the Neb.

Loved your post, tracer.

Thanks, Mike!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

tracer
Member
posted 05-01-99 02:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer     

Here is a complete version of what I started a few posts back. Pardon the partial repetition, but I made a few changes and wanted to present my thoughts as a single, connected stream.

I have been trying to relate the theme of this film to the human condition, and specifically to my own understanding (or perception) of Truth and reality; trying to describe this life from a Matrix-based perspective. My journey on this path has barely begun, but let me see if I can put into words some of my initial insights.

I believe the Matrix is representative of this worldly life. We perceive a reality from which we cannot escape. Like Neo, we may sense the existence of an existence beyond this life. We may have visions, dreams, or revelations that provide an awareness of, or even a glimpse of, this other existence. However, these moments will always be as through a veil, clouded and partially obscured. We cannot see clearly because our eyes are not yet opened; and much as we may be philosophically open to the Truth, full realization is impossible. It is not enough to want it, and we remain unsatisfied even if we seek it. If we are alive and breathing, we are by definition still bound to this Matrix; still “plugged in” so to speak. We are born into this condition, and remain so throughout our life (in the temporal/mortal sense).

This “other” existence is our Self as defined and created by God; it is our soul, our eternal being. The present physical manifestation of that soul is but a projection, a DNA-based hologram, of my true spiritual self. As Morpheus explained to Neo, “Your appearance now is what we call residual self image. It is the mental projection of your digital self.”

Death is the only means by which we are released from the Matrix of this reality. Death is not an end of life, but only an end of my participation in this present “simulation”. Through death I will “unplug”, and experience for the first time the Truth. My eyes will finally be opened. I will know myself, my true Self, as I really am, just as Neo did the moment he experienced awareness in the pod. I will see God, my creator, face to face, much in the same way that Neo was greeted by Morpheus for the first time in the flesh. “Welcome to the real world…”

My previous existence, my life in this present reality, will become as a dream. What of his Matrix reality did Neo carry with him out of the pod (a symbol of our physical, earthly existence)? Only his memories and experiences. His career, his belongings, his apartment, his identification; all were digital illusions. “I have these memories from my life. None of them happened.” What we experience in this life is not real, in the sense of eternal or everlasting. All is transitory. Yet all is not without meaning or significance!

It was through Neo’s digital existence that he experienced an awareness of the truth, pursued this awareness, and ultimately responded to the invitation to commit himself to the truth (the red pill). What, then, is the purpose for this present reality, this Matrix? I believe it is an opportunity to pursue the awareness of Himself (the splinter in our mind) that God has planted in the heart of each of us. Romans 1: 19, “because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.” It is an opportunity to seek God, and respond to His invitation to enter into a relationship with Him.

For this reason, everything we experience in this reality is significant; not in and of itself, but because of where it leads us. We experience love so that we may come to understand God’s love for us. We experience suffering so that we may understand the significance of the Cross. We experience loss in order to understand the anguish of separation from God. We are given the opportunity to make decisions and experience the consequences in order to understand the nature of sin and wrath. We are given the opportunity to forgive others in order to understand the grace of God.

Most importantly, we are given the opportunity to make a choice; do we accept the invitation and follow the white rabbit (the Lamb of God)? This decision is the primary purpose for our entire existence in this Matrix. This decision determines which reality we will experience as a spiritual being for all eternity. Matthew 25: 46, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” And, like Neo, we must make this decision with our eyes still closed (but our mind open)! We must make this decision as one still plugged into the Matrix, without all the answers, without certainty of what the Truth is. Because of this, it is a decision of faith. WHO DO YOU TRUST? Think about it; what caused Neo to heed the advice of a cryptic and unexplainable message on his computer screen? What caused him to stay in a car with strangers who were pointing a gun in his face? What caused him to take the red pill? I say again, WHO DO YOU TRUST?

So, fellow coppertops, what are we to do? 2 Corinthians 4: 18, “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” If you are reading this, your journey has already begun…


------------------
"It's the question that drives us..."

nilent
Member
posted 05-01-99 02:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nilent   Click Here to Email nilent     

What is a Messiah? Seriously.

Neo isn't "redeeming" the "sins" ot the podpeople, is he?

Messiah as Hero......leader? Source of All?

Or is that His Father?

His? Such sexist anthropomorphism eh ? :-)

Yes of course the Matrix encompasses much that is Messianic in it's imagry/metaphor.......but I believe the movie is something *more/else*.

None the less; some good stuff here.......the very fact that so many brain/heart cells have been fired up is a testament to the positive potency of this fine flick.

cecilc
Member
posted 05-01-99 06:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

nilent,...
If you're looking for a "book" definition of Messiah (of course, you're going to get the references to BOTH Judaism and Christianity in that definition!), but another definition means "any expected savior or liberator of a people, country, etc." (this according to Mr. Webster!)
So I think you're right that, NO, Neo is not actually "redeeming" any "sin" in the podpeople. However, in this case, he is playing the role of "liberator" because he has become freer to walk inside the Matrix without fear (a little "of the world but not part of the world" sort of thing!) to help people wake up and live a "real" life! Now, that "real" life may not be as comfortable as the "pod" life (witness Cypher!), but at least these people will know reality! So I think the Messiah label for Neo still holds up!
Cecil out

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
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posted 05-01-99 06:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

nilent: The Messiah is the one who is able to do something that no one else can. In breaking free, this individual is then able to free others.

The movie doesn’t skirt this issue. One guy has to open the door. No one else can do it. The guy who does it is the Messiah.

Make sense?

That others don’t like this interpretation is puzzling to me. If Cecil had called this “The Matrix as Hero Movie” no one would have objected. But to link the Hero to Christ sets people off. Go figure.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
Member
posted 05-01-99 06:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Oops, didn't see you get in ahead of me, Cecil. Sorry for the repetition.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Sampson
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posted 05-01-99 06:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

hmmm

I can say right off the top of my head that many organizations have put alot of energy into undermining Jesus and his message. Since they have succeeded in many ways they have been fertalizing this fear and trying to make it grow.

I for one would love to meet Jesus in human form. I think we could go have a beautiful picnic in the park or something like that.

I think he would be realy easy to get along with

Sampson

12321
Member
posted 05-01-99 06:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

nilent: One more thing. The story of the Messiah is about reunification with the Source. It’s about the end of one stage of existence and the beginning of another. It’s about the conquest of death and the beginning of life everlasting.

Try to push aside “religious” notions, translate that into terms you’re more comfortable with, and tell me, please. What is *more* than that?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
Member
posted 05-01-99 07:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

And about that “*more* than that” question... I’m not trying to be a smart-as_, I’m actually curious, nilent.

tracer: Looks like you’re on your way to giving cleave.com some in-depth competition. Quite impressive. No, quite beautiful! More, please.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
Member
posted 05-01-99 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Just a couple more observations here.....I just saw the movie again (the more I see it, the more I love it!) and I've noticed a few more things:

I don't know if this has been pointed out before (at least, I don't remember having seen it! But if I'm the last one on the train, let me know!), but when Neo & Trinity meet in the bar in the beginning of the film and Trinity introduces herself, Neo responds with, "THE Trinity?" And then goes on to say, "I thought you were a guy." Well,...isn't that the world's conception of THE Trinity - that it's MALE?! When I heard that, I thought, "Wow! That's true! We ALL think THE Trinity's a GUY!" That was a very telling realization of the meaning of that dialog! (I really hope I'm not making a fool of myself by posting something that's been seen by everyone but me!)

Concerning the "thing" on Neo's chest when he's hauled up out of the sewer into the Neb. I really DON'T think it's a piece of debris on him - it looks like a heart-shaped "wound" of some kind over his heart - like a patch of skin has just been removed from that area! But it's clearly heart-shaped and over his heart - there's some significance to that! I'll think on it some more!

I am now convinced that Trinity KNEW Neo was The One (based on the fact that she knew she was in love with him. And that the Oracle had told her that she would fall in love with The One) even before the "near confession" at the phone booth at the subway station. Before that,...when Neo decided to "go in" to rescue Morpheus and was telling Tank and Trinity that he wasn't The One - Trinity kept telling him No! That isn't true! Her protests were because she knew Neo was The One right then, because she already knew she was in love with him!

And I KNOW this has been posted before, but I'm going to comment on it, anyway. The kiss Trinity plants on Neo right before he awakens from his "death" has been likened here in this thread to a "kiss of life" or "breath of life". After seeing it again, that analogy is just DEAD ON! No pun intended! I'm so glad that somebody picked up on that - congrats to them!

And one more personal observation that meant something probably ONLY to me! When Trinity is fighting the disabled helicopter and is looking for a place to sit it down - she heads toward a couple of buildings. Huge letters on one of the buildings reads "MM1". MESSIAH MOVIE 1! :-) As I said, that one's just for me! :-)

That's just my opinion,...but,hey,...I could be wrong!

Cecil out

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
Member
posted 05-01-99 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

I love it when you get excited.

And about Trinity likin’ Neo... this seems like a bit of foreshadowing too:

Cypher: Yeah.
Trinity: Is everything in place?
Cypher: You weren't supposed to relieve me.
Trinity: I know, but I want to take your shift.
Cypher: You like watching him, don't you? You like watching him.
Trinity: Don't be ridiculous.

----- ----- -----

Cecil and gang: I gotta fess up to a couple of posts in Imagery and Metaphor Pt. 2 [5:20 and 10:42 AM today]... It’d be real easy to misunderstand what I said there. There’s no implied criticism of you or anyone else. It’s one of those “When they find, they will be disturbed” things. When you read it, just remember where I put my chips in this poker game. He works in mysterious ways, right?

Heck, it may not even make sense. But if it does, and it disturbs, remember that next part: “When they are disturbed, they will marvel.” {Thomas 2:3]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
Member
posted 05-01-99 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

I’ve got a few minutes, so... Here’s the dialogue I posted at I & M:

-- Neo: I can't go back, can I?
-- Morpheus: No. But if you could, would you really want to? I feel I owe you an apology. We have a rule. We never free a mind once it's reached a certain age. It's dangerous, the mind has trouble letting go. I've seen it before and I'm sorry. I did what I did because...I had to. When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix and the war, bring freedom to our people. That is why there are those of us who have spent our entire lives searching the Matrix looking for him. I did what I did because I believe that search is over.... Get some rest, you're going to need it.
-- Neo: For what?
-- Morpheus: Your training.

This detail seems to provoke massive resistance. Why? I mean people don’t seem to be making this connection. Think about where I post most often. Why haven’t those guys picked up on this?

[“guys” in the all-inclusive sense, fair ladies]

----- ----- -----

It seems to me that Morpheus says that Neo was that man born inside who taught them truth and started the movement. That he appears again -- in the flesh -- prior to the big finale shouldn’t threaten anyone. The Book doesn’t say he won’t. It does tell us where to find him, though... “Look, up in the sky...” [aw, you know the rest]

Is this troublesome? I’ll give you time to mull it over.

Much love,

Mike

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

shadrach
Member
posted 05-01-99 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shadrach     

OK, this is what I have now. Bear with me, because more is coming.

Neophile asked:
> > >
What does Cypher say at the very beginning when he and Trin are talking about her taking over his shift, right after he says "You know we're going to kill him, right?" He says one other line before Trin asks if the line is secure -- does anyone know what it is?
< < <

From script posted at http://www.ix625.com/matrixscript.html:
> > >
Cypher: We're going to kill him, do you understand that?
Trinity: Morpheus believes he is the one.
Cypher: Do you?
Trinity: It doesn't matter what I believe.
Cypher: You don't, do you?
Trinity: Did you hear that?
Cypher: Hear what?
Trinity: Are you sure this line is clean?
Cypher: Yeah, of course I'm sure.
Trinity: I better go.
< < <

OnFyre4God wrote:
> > >
We should only condone doctrine derived directly from God's word. Please,
free to change my mind about this. I tend to lean a lot toward fundamentalist
doctrine, but I will always agree to disagree in the end. Faith in Jesus is all that
matters.
< < <

It is written, in Corinthians: "love … believes all things … bears all things … endures all things." Not some things, not most things, but all things.

Yeah, we should e-mail each other (responding to your next post too). My address is accessible and I have many of you guys’s addy’s on file too. Lets do it.

OnFyre4God wrote:
> > >
It makes this point very clear --- "I am the way, the
truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME." -Jesus
The Messiah

You see Neophile, we can't all have our own truth. Because if my truth was the
truth, your truth was the truth, 3seas truth was the truth, Buddah's truth was the
truth, Mohammed's truth was the truth, and Joseph Smith's truth was the truth,
then what would be the truth?
< < <

The truth is the truth, eternally, and it belongs to us, not to them. They are "sentient programs," "gatekeepers" that "hold all the keys" and that we must "fight." The victorious savior holds the keys in his hand, as in Revelations. Listen: here is a perspective you might like to know. When Jesus said, "I am the way," I believe he meant "God is the way" because in Moses, God says that His name is, "I am that I am." So, if "I am the way," then "I am *is* the way," or in other words, the "I am" in me is the way just as the "I am" in Christ is the way, or the "I am" that is in Buddha or that you may be aware of. "I am" is not in "them" at all, and that is why killing "them" is not a sin. This does not mean it is not a sin to kill your brother. This means it is not a sin to kill your brother’s keeper. That does not mean it is not a sin to kill your parents or legal guardian; it means it is not a sin to fight against their control.

In the same sense, no one "comes to the Father," whose name is "I am that I am," except "through me," because "I am" cannot be in anything else but "me." Conversely, often a man knows the way, but he *is* not the way; he knows the path, but he does not *do* the path and *be* the path. I believe that The Matrix agrees with this perspective.

Morpheus said:
> > >
She told you exactly what you needed to hear, that's all. Neo, sooner
or later you're going to realize, just as I did, there's a difference between
knowing the path and walking the path.
< < <

You see, you are saying, "Jesus is the way and only through Him can you get to God." But, that is in conflict with what Jesus said. For Jesus said, "only through me," not "only through Jesus." You will also notice that Christ often referred to "the Son of Man," but he never said anywhere that "Jesus Christ is the only Son of Man and none of you are or can ever be the Son of Man or can get to Heaven by only believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

I believe that you are, like many people, taking Jesus’s statement from an external perspective, instead of an *eternal* perspective. Jesus is now, identify with me: I know that each of us has the "indwelling Christ" revealed to us, for we are all "children of God." Now, what is Christ in us has nothing to do with their names or their words; even though they have many names for theirs, ours is eternally present. They may even use the word Christ and call themselves Christians and attend Church, that does not mean they are one of us who have found the narrow way. Did the sun say we had to call it "the Sun" in order to see the light? No, but it does require that we plant our crops in its light if we want to bear fruit.

Cecilc wrote:
> > >
Of course, this leads into MY random thinking! First off, let me say that my latest
thinkings are NOT,...I repeat,...NOT to dismiss or repute or disparage or in any
way, shape, or form cut into Mike's ideas regarding the end of the movie being a
prelude to the 2nd coming! But I've had an inkling in this direction.....
Suppose instead of the 2nd coming, we begin to move into the Book of Acts? The
Word now needs to be spread within the Matrix that you CAN be SAVED - IF YOU
WANT TO! You can be released from the bondage that you REALLY live in and be
free! And to do that, you have to talk to this particular group (our favorite
group!), because that's the ONLY way for you to be saved! No one else can do it!
You certainly can't do it on your own - you need help!
So,...are we headed for the "...no one comes to the Father but through me."
parallel, too?!
And,...and...how will the general population of the Matrix respond to that
message?!
As always,...I can't wait for comments!
< < <

"My" job is to "extend the message to all people." Get it? Side notice the similarity between the word "messiah" and "message."

What this movie prompts "me" to do, is: tell people that the past does not exist; we are living in the past already because by the time we could ever understand the present, it no longer exists.

For example, when I play Quake, I almost always win because I shoot at where the other guy is GOING TO BE, and if he is weak enough, I can fake him into going where I am able to aim, or if I can predict him well enough, then I will position myself to where I can shoot where he is going to be, which makes him unable to ever come close to hitting me. But I must know the map perfectly, to be able to go around in it WITHOUT THINKING. Good chess players are the same way, they don’t think about it, they just KNOW. Practice comes first.

As in The Matrix, Neo is told by Morpheus, "Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? You think that's air you're breathing now?... Again."

Metaconstrux wrote:
> > >
But remember -- nothing in the matrix REALLY exists, especially history. History
contructs the Matrix's notions of truth, past, cause, effect, and justifications.
These notions are UNREAL twice over. They are still part of the AI programming,
and they are PAST, gone, unverifiable. History exists even less than breakfast
cereal in the Matrix.
< < <

So you see, "my" imaginations and ideas about what the present is, are necessarily false because they are unverifiable in real-time. That is to say, by the time I could possibly verify anything, it has already changed. So any ideas of history, like Metaconstrux wrote, are doubly false!

Likewise, there is also not a "real" future. This is easier to understand because in our culture we tend to believe that the future is not fixed, that it is not yet determined. But what I am saying is: there are certain things which are inevitable, that are eternal. They simply ARE. As John writes in Revelations, "the God who was, is, and is to come." This does not mean that there is a past in which God exists, but rather this is the only way to verbally express the nature of something which is eternal, or which lies above and within time-space.

Agent Smith said:
> > >
The future is our world, Morpheus. The future is our time.
. . .
We know that you've been contacted by a certain individual, a man who calls
himself Morpheus. Now whatever you think you know about this man is
irrelevant. He is considered by many authorities to be the most dangerous man
alive. My colleagues believe that I am wasting MY TIME with you but I believe that
you wish to do the right thing.
. . .
I'd like to share a revelation during MY TIME here.
. . .
I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key.
< < <

Remember that in Revelations, Jesus says he has the key to Hades. I think that Smith is the Devil, locked in Hell as a prison, and he is searching for the key, the code to Zion, the way out. But since Smith *is* made out of code, he can’t possibly SEE the CODE ITSELF. Neo DOES see the code because he has an higher, inner perspective. Side notice the similarity between the word perspective and the word perseverance.

This is like, Jesus gets to heaven and finds out that God is in hell because God loved Jesus and had to trade places with him to get him out of there. And Jesus doesn’t think he’s The One anyway. So he has to go back and get God out of Hell but he has to have Trinity’s help. But he has to stay in Hell in the end, to change it back into Heaven because he destroys Satan and then starts taking the place back over. You see, Jesus is The One who will win the war, because he will destroy Satan and all of Satan’s power, then go one by one to all people and convert them to be like him. This is possible because Jesus IS JUST A REGULAR GUY! As Neo says so many times.

> > >
Cypher said:
> > >
Well you have to. The image translators work for the construct
program. But there's way too much information to decode the Matrix. You get
used to it. I...I don't even see the code. All I see is blonde, brunette, red-head.
Hey, you a... want a drink?
< < <

But, Cypher doesn’t realize that Neo is fast enough to decode the matrix in real-time. Of course he only can do this perfectly, after he dies and comes back. I think that "decoding the matrix" is seeing past the "images" that the "construct program" projects into our minds and we accept as "real." To "see the code" would mean to me, to see what is "unreal; fake; projected" in real-time. This would be, to KNOW that the spoon does not exist, not just to say to ourselves inside of our minds that it does not exist. But to really SEE that it does not! This is something that one can only do, if one could have a frame of reference like Neo has; where one knows that what one takes as oneself, is really just a projected image of "the digital self." That what we are in reality, cannot be seen or experienced directly while we’re experiencing the matrix. However, if we remain identified with our real, non-matrix self and see our projected "digital self" as unreal and like a Quake guy running around, then we can do things and have CONTROL instead of the matrix having control.

To back this up, remember at the beginning when Trinity is lying at the foot of the staircase, fleeing the agents, and she talks to her (digital) self: "Get up Trinity. Just get up. Get up!!!" Also, Neo said he does not believe in fate, "Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life." Later Morpheus said, "What is the Matrix? Control. The Matrix is a computer-generated dream world built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this." He holds up a battery. Look at this battery though: clearly visible is the "positive" symbol, which is a cross! Here is another double meaning, which should not be taken too literally.

Also, I think it’s interesting to look at the fact that the matrix is "computer-generated" and in it, we play the roles of "digital" selves. What is digital? Ones and zeroes. Maybe what we have to do, is find out what all the zeroes are, and just be the ones. Like OnFyre4God says, "God is … the space in between empty spaces." Which makes me think about hearbeats, because that is how in this movie we can tell if someone is alive or not: are they flatline? When I feel my heartbeat, there is a beat, like a pump, a feeling that surges through me. Then a pause. Which is one, and which is zero? Perhaps what Neo realizes, is that the PAUSE is the ONE, not the BEAT. Therefore when his heart no longer "beats," it doesn’t matter! Like Tanks says: "Door.... Door on your left. No, your other left.... Back door."

Tank: "Okay. What do you need, besides a miracle?"

Remember that Tank is the one who shoots Cypher. Nice foreshadowing!

> > >
Agent Smith: "You're empty."
Neo: "So are you."
< < <

See here, there is no mention of "me." Also see in this scene, how Neo mirrors Smith’s movements almost perfectly.

Another interesting thing, is that there is Room 303, and that the Masons have 33 degrees.

OnFyre4God, you have forgotten what The One says at the end of the movie.

> > >
I'm going to show them a world without
you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world
where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.
< < <

Rules like, "only My God is the Real God." Rules like, "Only through me." "Only through me" is a rule when you say it to somebody else, using it as a form of control of what you mistakenly take as reality! This is about ME and the ME that is in all of US. There is no one else here! Nobody. Not even a regular guy, or a carpenter. The reason The One leaves the choice of "where to go" up to "you," is because he doesn’t "know the future," and neither do I. Anything is possible. (Even reading this whole post, I hope!)

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

my cup is empty

12321
Member
posted 05-01-99 08:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

shadrach: Looking at familiar stories with fresh eyes is a gift. Thank you. There’s some real gems there. [I especially love the Jesus the Regular Guy as Messiah section]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

renard
Member
posted 05-01-99 10:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for renard     

Hey Onfrye,


I believe in GOD but please remember this is
only a movie and Neo, trinty, and morpheus
are not real and will never replace Jesus
as the son of GOD.

12321
Member
posted 05-02-99 05:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Okay, how ‘bout we cut the guy some slack? Onfyre has been flamed enough.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
Member
posted 05-02-99 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hey, renard,...

Man, you might as well bust ME, too, with that comment to OnFyre! :-) I am JUST as guilty, my friend! But (along with OnFyre, I imagine!) just as proud of it!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
Member
posted 05-02-99 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Cecil [or anyone for that matter]: I’m still waiting on your take, you know, concerning the post of 042799 09:59 PM [well, that one and about a dozen others]

Of course, there’s a lot of other folk who’ve dangled ideas as well. Take your pick or stick a new one up.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
Member
posted 05-02-99 06:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hey, Mike,...

Here's your post you refer to:

Cecil: That’s quite a disclaimer you’ve got there. And that’s a really good connection you’re making. I agree, I can see it clearly, and it makes sense, except for one thing...

Seems like there’s gonna be a knock-down, drag-out fight between the two factions in the third movie [if the second’s a prequel] and that means somebody’s gonna lose big time.

You see where I’m going with this?
--------------------------------------

I guess I've always treated the "knock-down, drag-out" as a certainty in any sequel, given the ending of this one. And I THOUGHT that you were headed toward the 2nd Coming allegory for any sequel, definitely expecting someone to "lose big time". Is that where you're still headed or have you changed directions?!

Cecil

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
Member
posted 05-02-99 08:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Nah, no change.

We’re closin’ in on the two-thousand year mark -- the end of the second/beginning of the third God-day. The Kid comes back, takes on the bad guys [with a little help from his friends] and somebody gets thrown into solitary for a thousand years. Then there’s the final battle. [but that’s another story]

Is this makin’ sense? Remember, Christ rose at the very beginning of the third day. The symmetry is perfect, especially given that the Book says there’ll be a thousand years of peace next. Three thousand years total.

This’s rushed ‘cause I’m out the door to see the film again, but if it’s not a Second Coming story, how do you feel the next battle parallels the first time around?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Formula
Member
posted 05-02-99 09:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Formula   Click Here to Email Formula     

For a while now I have simply read what is being said and went on my way. I don't like that because I feel intrusive, like I shouldn't be 'allowed' to read because I haven't stated my views, which by the way, are quite a bit more open-minded than before I saw this movie and first visited this forum. Actually, I question my views; I don't know what I believe any more. My whole life, I was brought up to believe that "Jesus is my savior, I'm a Southern Babtist, and that is the way things should be." But now, after seeing The Matrix, I ask myself 'Why?' Why do I go to church Sunday morning? Why do I pray before I go to bed? I realize that the answer is that I was told to do that in my upbringing (which is still going on, I'm 16) and I never made my own decision. Now that I have begun to see that things are not as narrow, not as linear if you will, I realize that there is something "more." This is where my statement about not knowing what my beliefs are anymore comes from. Perhaps this whole posting of mine doesn't help anyone, and if not, I'm sorry. It all stemmed from my being tired of simply reading and being on my way. I hope now I can soak up all the beliefs and ideas posted in this topic and others without feeling like I do not have the authority to read them for some reason. I also hope, though, that my posting here will get me more involved in soaking up the beliefs and ideas here as well.

Solucius
Member
posted 05-02-99 10:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solucius   Click Here to Email Solucius     

Hey Formula

It was great to hear your story and honest position regarding your adventure in the matrix. To hear your story of someone who has had the guts to go beyond old patterning and take a chance on new information which could lead them onwards and upwards is itself encouraging. At some point we all had to take those initial steps like yourself which can seem to be daunting at the time, to leave the safety net of what is familiar and safe and take a chance on exploring something new. All pioneers need to do this.

I think I speak for everyone when we say that you and anyone else are welcome to read the postings even though you had not previously contributed. Feeling that you do not have the authority I feel is an old reflection that perhaps is a product of the dominating past rather than a product of your potential future. The fact is that you have transcended those thoughts and dared to take the special coloured pill which has placed you in this new realm of posting. You did it becuase you knew it was right for you on some operating level.

So in affect you have given yourself the authority which is exactly how both Jesus or Morpheous of others would have had it, as part of a self liberating gesture on your part in expanding the horizons of your own matrix realm. So well done.

Anyway this is a public domain and every time we post we put ourselves out there to take back whatever comes through. Who is anyone to say whether a person has the right or not to be part of it all in a setup like this, if they did they would flamed to a cinder.

From my perspective it seems as though you have moved from the comfort of the lake into the bigger sea, with oceans waiting for you up ahead.

Nice to hear your point of view and commentaries of your adventures

Regards


Solucius

cecilc
Member
posted 05-03-99 03:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Mike,...

Have no fear.....I'm hook, line, and sinker into your 2nd Coming story for the sequel! But do you think the BEGINNING of the sequel will be that climactic battle between the factions, or will we have a build up toward that battle!! Sort of a Reader's Digest condensed version of Acts through Revelation, then the conquest of the AI (Satan) by Neo (Christ)?? That's all I was suggesting by my previous post regarding the Book of Acts - I wasn't trying to shoot holes in your 2nd Coming vision!

Cecil

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

cecilc
Member
posted 05-03-99 03:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Formula,...

Glad to have you here! That was a very honest, poignant post you just made - just making an opinion is one thing, but making a PERSONAL post such as you did,...well,...that takes some guts. Congrats!
I'm the father of a 15 year old, and I see doubt, confusion, and questions emerging in her as well - and I think that those emotions are part and parcel of growing up. So don't feel that you're alone - sometimes I think that your age REQUIRES that you have questions if for no other reason than to validate what you've been taught. Hope that makes sense!
So now that you're not "lurking" anymore, I have to assume that you came to this thread for a reason. Tell us what drew you here. And don't be afraid to let us all know what opinions you have on this aspect of The Matrix - after all, that's what's drawn all of us here.
Looking forward to your next post.

Cecil

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

Neophile-
Member
posted 05-03-99 07:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neophile-     

Hey kids! Man, this post is growing like crazy! Last time I checked in it had 34 posts, now it has 64 -- really nice ideas being tossed into the ring also.

Sampson: I really love reading your posts -- you and I seem to be on the same wavelength. You summed up all my ramblings in one succinct sentence "My problem is with those people that get all hairy and say Jesus is the only path to God." That's my point exactly. GOD (or whatever you call the higher power) exists above and beyond EVERY SINGLE organized religion ever created. GOD is the creator (I don't care what religion you are talking about). GOD gave us teachers like Jesus and Buddha, etc. to help each of us individually find a path, but GOD doesn't give a rat's anus whether you read the Bible, Torah, etc. etc. -- IT'S THE MESSAGE THAT IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!! One of interconnectedness and energy; one of peace and compassion for all in which we can create an existence that is without the wild swings of violence and hatred and divisiveness that exist today. We are quite aways from that now, but GOD still believes in us and will still guide us NO MATTER WHAT. That is what I believe.

cecilc:
My answer to the second part of your post (a ways back, sorry!) is this: You asked "Do you believe that Christ is the Son of God with all the Divinity and Authority of God?" and did I have a problem with Jesus saying "I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me."
I answer: I believe that Christ is but ONE of the "sons" of God that was sent here with all the divinity and authority of God. Buddha, Ghandi, Albert Schweitzer, Mother Teresa, and on and on, are all examples of those spirits on this planet that had a greater understanding of what God was saying. I believe that Jesus WAS the way, truth and life and no one comes to the Father but through him, but only from the perspective that we ARE ALL a piece of that bigger spirit (a candle in the sun, as I've mentioned before). Jesus was a shining example of who we must become, what we must do, how we must live in order to realize our highest potential. I believe his words are to be interpreted to say that when we are all "like" Jesus in the way that he understood the message of the higher power, we will "through him" be able to get to that place also. N'est pas?

Anyway: I'm gonna chill on this site for awhile. I love hearing what everyone has to say, but I need a break.

See ya all in the future, and remember: "There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path" and "The answer is out there, Neo, looking for you... and it will find you, if you want it to."

------------------
Neophile -~-

cecilc
Member
posted 05-03-99 08:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Thanks for the reply, Neophile-

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah Movie"
cecilc@mindspring.com

Sampson
Member
posted 05-03-99 08:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

hey neophille
thx for the coplimento

I forgot to put ur name as one of my favorite individuals on the BB. But u are..

Someone was saying before about this I am

And that is god and when Jesus said that he was saying I am as in the I am that in all of us. For the infinite to exist it just has to say I am.

Nice post Shadrach

and nice to see u out and about Formula
I found that my latter teanage years were very difficult, You get all kinds of new responsibility to be who u are and be acountable for it.
Don't fret too much there is hope for finding the answers just ask yourself the right questions.

to all
I see things from such a different angle from most here its not funny
I see the apocalaps (spelling is not my forteih) coming, but I just see the teams and the sides as being a little different than most would say. There are those who have been misleading people much and adding them to their army without telling them the truth. Be careful it will be no fun to be on the wrong side. Ask yourself what is going to happen, then ask your self why u know or don't know these things? Then act.
find out....

The enemy is among us
The army for freedom is here too
Can u tell the difference?
U have been told many things, have u been mislead?
Everybody will win in the long run.
The long run will just be very long for some.

Sampson for free minds

tracer
Member
posted 05-03-99 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer     

About the possible "conquest of the AI" in a sequel, I don't see it going down that way. My reason is the content of Neo's closing speech directed to the AI.

"I'm going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you."

The first sentence appears to support your idea of a conquest of the AI. However, it could also mean that Neo is going to "demonstrate" to them a world, not necessarily "establish" a world, free of the control of the AI. I believe he intends to use the Matrix as a means to reach the masses (most of them are too old to be able to mentally accept the truth anyway). He will free them, in that they will have the choice to accept the truth and unplug if they so desire.

The last sentence seems to allow room for compromise. Neo is saying to the AI, "here are my intentions; you can work with me or against me." Remember, the AI is an intelligent consciousness, a new species based on silicon rather than DNA. It also happens to be the bastard child of humanity. Neo seems to recognize the right of the AI to exist as a species. He is just making it clear what his terms are. Whether the AI accepts his offer will remain to be seen.

------------------
"It's the question that drives us..."

cecilc
Member
posted 05-03-99 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hey, Tracer,....

Here's a post a made on 4/27. Are we not far off each other here?!
------------------------------------------
Of course, this leads into MY random thinking! First off, let me say that my latest thinkings are NOT,...I repeat,...NOT to dismiss or repute or disparage or in any way, shape, or form cut into Mike's ideas regarding the end of the movie being a prelude to the 2nd coming! But I've had an inkling in this direction.....
Suppose instead of the 2nd coming, we begin to move into the Book of Acts? The Word now needs to be spread within the Matrix that you CAN be SAVED - IF YOU WANT TO! You can be released from the bondage that you REALLY live in and be free! And to do that, you have to talk to this particular group (our favorite group!), because that's the ONLY way for you to be saved! No one else can do it! You certainly can't do it on your own - you need help!
So,...are we headed for the "...no one comes to the Father but through me." parallel, too?!
And,...and...how will the general population of the Matrix respond to that message?!
As always,...I can't wait for comments!
-------------------------------------------

That last line never changes, does it?!

Cecil

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah Movie"
cecilc@mindspring.com

tracer
Member
posted 05-03-99 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer     

cecilc: Yes, very much so! Thank you for reminding me of your post. No wonder I had this sense of deja vu...

The difference is that I was focusing on the role of the AI rather than Neo. Mike wrote, "Seems like there’s gonna be a knock-down, drag-out fight between the two factions in the third movie [if the second’s a prequel] and that means somebody’s gonna lose big time." This could certainly be the case, but I wanted to make the point that Neo seems to have left the option open for an alternative. He understands that the AI, as a "living" consciousness, will seek self-preservation just as humanity would. I think he respects their right to existence as a species. He knows exactly how easily things could turn ugly, and seems to have in mind the possibility for a collaborative coexistence. Any agreement on this?

In saying this, I am, of course, departing from the methapor of the AI representing sin or Satan. Instead, I guess the AI could be representative of the scientific community; those who have adopted science as their "religion", and as such are dependent upon the rigid logic of scientific principles. If so, then Neo is saying that there is a purpose for both science and faith; the two need not be mutually exclusive.

In writing this, I have just had a brief revelation. Another perspective from which the entire film can be interpreted: the AI represents the followers of science (governed by logic, deduction and rigid principles); Neo and the resistance represent the followers of spirituality (governed by faith in a higher power, compassion and love).

I would really like some feedback on this perspective. I am also experiencing another deja vu, so I hope I am not subconsciously stealing someone else's idea here (if so, my profuse apologies).

------------------
"It's the question that drives us..."

nospoon3
Member
posted 05-03-99 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nospoon3   Click Here to Email nospoon3     

well gang if Formula can do it so can I.

As a child my only memory of church was one of my gandmother dragging me to the place one Easter and my mother crying through the sermen. It bothered me then and still does.

The title itself of this thread had my panties in a bunch. I have a problem with the word "god" but in the past several years come to realize that there is some one looking out for me, I have come to call it "the universe"

See it doesn't matter what you beleive we are here united by this movie. wild huh?

where was i?

Anyway, I get the whole Messiah thing, after all Neo is the One and he is gonna free the podfolk.

As I have said before I am in the learning stages, the reason for all my reasearch but have you thought about something that the person claiming to be Keanu said in a forum the other night?

"OK, everybody always talks about the religious particularly christian undertones. i think these are overplayed. philosophy and eastern thought are much more important.

the easiest subtext to notice is the Cartesian one; if you know any
Descartes or have read his meditations, you probably saw this.

In the First Meditation, Descartes sets out to undermine the senses. he uses three ways.

1.all that we know was taught us in childhood. our teachers learned >
it by being taught in childhood, etc. how can we be sure that that
knowledge is not suspect?

2.we have all had dreams so vivid that we didnt know we were dreaming until we woke up. how do we know that life itself is not a dream? might we not one day wake up?

3. for several centuries the church bluepill accepted the idea that God could "bypass the middleman" (ie, if he wants us to sense
something, he can implant the idea of it directly into our minds; he need not physically create that object). although church elders said God could do this, they said he would not because it would make
him deceptive. descartes thus poses the idea of a deceptive god (he calls it an 'evil genius') which constantly deceives us.

morpheus makes several references to the dream argument, and there is an obvious parallel between the AI and the evil genius, with the matrix being the ideas directly implanted into us.

another subtext: Nietzschean.

i have heard that a lot of people dont like the way i fly off at the end of the flick. this is actually an allusion to Nietzsche (think
superman=ubermensch)

Keep an open mind its the only way to learn

------------------
There is no spoon

Welcome to the Desert of the Real

god of dreams
Member
posted 05-03-99 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for god of dreams   Click Here to Email god of dreams     

Hello All,
Well, I am kinda new at this whole thread thing so you will have to be patient with me. I have been keeping up with this thread and others, and I love it! I have seen the movie about 7 times and I love it even more now than when I saw it the first time. I absolutlely love the metaphor of Neo as the Messiah, and all the other goodies that go along with that.

I am currently about to graduate college (in 5 Days!) and I have been questioning my life and wondering what I am going to do after I graduate, and this movie was so appropriate to me in the state of mind that i have been in the past few months. It really spoke to me as far as choosing my own destiny and where my life fits in with eternity and with God.

I have read all of your responses, and I appreciate your comments and questions about God,and who He is. I believe that there is one God, and that He is the Creator of the Universe, and yes He is the God of the "christian" Bible. What I don't think a lot of people realize when they think of Christians and "their God" they don't realize that He is so much bigger than what we humans make him out to be.

Let me explain: When people think of Christians, they think of people who are constricted to believe whatever their church tells them to believe, and they have to go to church every sunday, and give their money to the poor and so on. They are a part of the matrix as it were... To some people believing in just one God, and just ONE way, is bigotous to them and too constricting. It is true that a lot of people give Christianity a bad name because they are HUMAN, and they don't represent God well. But I urge you not to look at Christianity in the way that people represent it but look at the truth of the Bible and what it says. Just like Neo was a doubting thomas, because He was looking at all of external circumstances. He didn't discover the truth until he looked inside himself and made a choice to see the truth for what it really was. Then He embraced the truth, and thus freed His mind.

I can tell you that from my own experience, Christianity does not constrict me. I choose not to look at external circumstances and become bitter because others do not represent God well, but I choose to look to and discover God in a personal way. In John 8:31-32, it says, "If you abide in My Word, you are my disciples indeed. AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!!"

The truth of God, and the reality of God in my own experience has been within the confines of Christianity and its truth, but I wouldn't trade it for the world because within that environment I have been set free! My relationship with God has helped me to become the person I am meant to be, I have made the choice, just like Neo, to become all that I was destined to be.

I could talk about this for hours, and if you need any further explanation please email me, I would be delighted to answer any of your questions. Thanks for listening!

libertebelle@hotmail.com

god of dreams
Member
posted 05-03-99 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for god of dreams   Click Here to Email god of dreams     

Hello All,
Well, I am kinda new at this whole thread thing so you will have to be patient with me. I have been keeping up with this thread and others, and I love it! I have seen the movie about 7 times and I love it even more now than when I saw it the first time. I absolutlely love the metaphor of Neo as the Messiah, and all the other goodies that go along with that.

I am currently about to graduate college (in 5 Days!) and I have been questioning my life and wondering what I am going to do after I graduate, and this movie was so appropriate to me in the state of mind that i have been in the past few months. It really spoke to me as far as choosing my own destiny and where my life fits in with eternity and with God.

I have read all of your responses, and I appreciate your comments and questions about God,and who He is. I believe that there is one God, and that He is the Creator of the Universe, and yes He is the God of the "christian" Bible. What I don't think a lot of people realize when they think of Christians and "their God" they don't realize that He is so much bigger than what we humans make him out to be.

Let me explain: When people think of Christians, they think of people who are constricted to believe whatever their church tells them to believe, and they have to go to church every sunday, and give their money to the poor and so on. They are a part of the matrix as it were... To some people believing in just one God, and just ONE way, is bigotous to them and too constricting. It is true that a lot of people give Christianity a bad name because they are HUMAN, and they don't represent God well. But I urge you not to look at Christianity in the way that people represent it but look at the truth of the Bible and what it says. Just like Neo was a doubting thomas, because He was looking at all of external circumstances. He didn't discover the truth until he looked inside himself and made a choice to see the truth for what it really was. Then He embraced the truth, and thus freed His mind.

I can tell you that from my own experience, Christianity does not constrict me. I choose not to look at external circumstances and become bitter because others do not represent God well, but I choose to look to and discover God in a personal way. In John 8:31-32, it says, "If you abide in My Word, you are my disciples indeed. AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!!"

The truth of God, and the reality of God in my own experience has been within the confines of Christianity and its truth, but I wouldn't trade it for the world because within that environment I have been set free! My relationship with God has helped me to become the person I am meant to be, I have made the choice, just like Neo, to become all that I was destined to be.

I could talk about this for hours, and if you need any further explanation please email me, I would be delighted to answer any of your questions. Thanks for listening!

libertebelle@hotmail.com

god of dreams
Member
posted 05-03-99 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for god of dreams   Click Here to Email god of dreams     

Hello All,
Well, I am kinda new at this whole thread thing so you will have to be patient with me. I have been keeping up with this thread and others, and I love it! I have seen the movie about 7 times and I love it even more now than when I saw it the first time. I absolutlely love the metaphor of Neo as the Messiah, and all the other goodies that go along with that.

I am currently about to graduate college (in 5 Days!) and I have been questioning my life and wondering what I am going to do after I graduate, and this movie was so appropriate to me in the state of mind that i have been in the past few months. It really spoke to me as far as choosing my own destiny and where my life fits in with eternity and with God.

I have read all of your responses, and I appreciate your comments and questions about God,and who He is. I believe that there is one God, and that He is the Creator of the Universe, and yes He is the God of the "christian" Bible. What I don't think a lot of people realize when they think of Christians and "their God" they don't realize that He is so much bigger than what we humans make him out to be.

Let me explain: When people think of Christians, they think of people who are constricted to believe whatever their church tells them to believe, and they have to go to church every sunday, and give their money to the poor and so on. They are a part of the matrix as it were... To some people believing in just one God, and just ONE way, is bigotous to them and too constricting. It is true that a lot of people give Christianity a bad name because they are HUMAN, and they don't represent God well. But I urge you not to look at Christianity in the way that people represent it but look at the truth of the Bible and what it says. Just like Neo was a doubting thomas, because He was looking at all of external circumstances. He didn't discover the truth until he looked inside himself and made a choice to see the truth for what it really was. Then He embraced the truth, and thus freed His mind.

I can tell you that from my own experience, Christianity does not constrict me. I choose not to look at external circumstances and become bitter because others do not represent God well, but I choose to look to and discover God in a personal way. In John 8:31-32, it says, "If you abide in My Word, you are my disciples indeed. AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!!"

The truth of God, and the reality of God in my own experience has been within the confines of Christianity and its truth, but I wouldn't trade it for the world because within that environment I have been set free! My relationship with God has helped me to become the person I am meant to be, I have made the choice, just like Neo, to become all that I was destined to be.

I could talk about this for hours, and if you need any further explanation please email me, I would be delighted to answer any of your questions. Thanks for listening!

libertebelle@hotmail.com

god of dreams
Member
posted 05-03-99 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for god of dreams   Click Here to Email god of dreams     

Hello All,
Well, I am kinda new at this whole thread thing so you will have to be patient with me. I have been keeping up with this thread and others, and I love it! I have seen the movie about 7 times and I love it even more now than when I saw it the first time. I absolutlely love the metaphor of Neo as the Messiah, and all the other goodies that go along with that.

I am currently about to graduate college (in 5 Days!) and I have been questioning my life and wondering what I am going to do after I graduate, and this movie was so appropriate to me in the state of mind that i have been in the past few months. It really spoke to me as far as choosing my own destiny and where my life fits in with eternity and with God.

I have read all of your responses, and I appreciate your comments and questions about God,and who He is. I believe that there is one God, and that He is the Creator of the Universe, and yes He is the God of the "christian" Bible. What I don't think a lot of people realize when they think of Christians and "their God" they don't realize that He is so much bigger than what we humans make him out to be.

Let me explain: When people think of Christians, they think of people who are constricted to believe whatever their church tells them to believe, and they have to go to church every sunday, and give their money to the poor and so on. They are a part of the matrix as it were... To some people believing in just one God, and just ONE way, is bigotous to them and too constricting. It is true that a lot of people give Christianity a bad name because they are HUMAN, and they don't represent God well. But I urge you not to look at Christianity in the way that people represent it but look at the truth of the Bible and what it says. Just like Neo was a doubting thomas, because He was looking at all of external circumstances. He didn't discover the truth until he looked inside himself and made a choice to see the truth for what it really was. Then He embraced the truth, and thus freed His mind.

I can tell you that from my own experience, Christianity does not constrict me. I choose not to look at external circumstances and become bitter because others do not represent God well, but I choose to look to and discover God in a personal way. In John 8:31-32, it says, "If you abide in My Word, you are my disciples indeed. AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!!"

The truth of God, and the reality of God in my own experience has been within the confines of Christianity and its truth, but I wouldn't trade it for the world because within that environment I have been set free! My relationship with God has helped me to become the person I am meant to be, I have made the choice, just like Neo, to become all that I was destined to be.

I could talk about this for hours, and if you need any further explanation please email me, I would be delighted to answer any of your questions. Thanks for listening!

libertebelle@hotmail.com

12321
Member
posted 05-03-99 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

tracer: I agree. The option is left open.

041799 10:36 AM
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html

Cecil: I hear you and I understand what you’re saying. I’m sure not discounting all the parallels with JC’s first swing through this world of illusion. Heck, you know we agree on all that.

...As for the call Neo makes at the end of the movie... he says:

“I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here, to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world, without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world, where anything is possible. Where we go from there, is a choice I leave to you.”

It’s important to remember he’s not talking to us in that scene. He’s talking to the other side. I think he’s giving them one last chance. The AIs may not represent machines, but mechanistic thought. Free will dictates uncertainty. Mercy allows for last chances.

The Bible is full of stories we’re often taught before we read. Sometimes this affects what we see when we read it for ourselves. This is the ultimate action-adventure story.


Cecil’s Response: ...is that mechanistic, rigid thought capable of appreciating a last chance offer; is it capable of heeding a fair warning? (that's for you, acrobat!). My idea of mechanistic thought is that it doesn't bend - it's fearless. To accept a "last chance" or "fair warning" you would have to FEAR the consequences - is that fear in the AI's repetoire.


My turn again: Didn’t those two agents look kinda scared after Neo entered and transmuted(?) their buddy. Plus there’s always the power of Love. [maybe that’s what the flash of light in that scene was] Powerful stuff. [to me, without a doubt, Love’s more powerful than Fear] Good not to discount that lever. [I know you know this... just flappin’ my lips]

----- ----- -----

And tracer, regarding the knock-down, drag-out... That refers to the portion of the AI that doesn’t choose to listen. [of course this entire idea is sketchy at best]

----- ----- -----

As for science vs. spirituality... Read [or skim] Jeffrey Satinover’s Cracking the Bible Code. Science meets spirituality. [and boy are they both surprised!]

The sealed book is opening.

----- ----- ----

And how nice to have so many other voices here. Will respond as time permits.

ps to nospoon3: I cut the Superman part out of the 041799 post quoted above. I loved that part!

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
Member
posted 05-03-99 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hey, tracer,....

I'm afraid my answer is going to be as "iffy" as a sequel, at this point!
IF....the Christ parallels are continued in a sequel, then I'd have to go with Mike's 2nd coming scenario in which there is a battle and the AI is absolutely defeated. And it may even be that Neo doesn't WANT to end it that way, it may be that the AI (in a bid for self preservation, as you said) doesn't give Neo any other option. And along the line of your "spirituality vs. science" thinking, when the AI (Satan) is defeated by Neo (Christ), what does that do to the perception of science? When the supernatural nature of spirituality is actually SEEN via Neo/Christ's defeat of the AI/Satan, does that defeat science?! Interesting perception that you've had there, tracer.

Now,...coexistence?? I don't know. I don't know if the human race would ever TRUST any intelligence that enslaved it - be it a bastard child of humanity (as you've pointed out) or an alien race. I think that's kinda dicey!

What do you think?!

Cecil

god of dreams,.....

Thanks for your post. Strangely enough, we've had that very same conversation at several different points throughout the life of this topic. It's always rejuvenating to have somebody jump in and reinforce it. Glad to have you in the pod.

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah Movie"
cecilc@mindspring.com

cecilc
Member
posted 05-03-99 03:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Everybody,....here go again!
New thread....The Matrix as Messiah Movie Book IV. The other relevant threads are listed below:

For the original thread:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html

For Part II: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000750.html

For Part III: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000806.html

For Book IV: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000930.html

Come join in!!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah Movie"
cecilc@mindspring.com

tracer
Member
posted 05-03-99 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer   Click Here to Email tracer     

12321: Thanks! Now I know the source of my deja vu.

cecilc: Much as I like to believe in "happy" endings, I have to agree with you on both counts. The AI sure didn't seem too tolerant of us ("you are a cancer..."), and human history is testimony to our nature. The realist in me aknowledges that the AI would probably refuse any such offer and humanity would never honor it anyway. But the thought sure is intriguing! And yes, if the Christ parallels are continued true to form, only one group will remain standing (and we know who that is!)

------------------
"It's the question that drives us..."