Hey! You beat me to it. You're pretty brave to walk amongst the Sci-Fi crowd and just toss that one out. I'm impressed.

I ain't puttin' down science fiction or its fans by any means. Heck, I'm one of 'em. I've got bookshelves filled with the marvelous stuff and plenty of ticket stubs to prove it. It's just not a very common interpretation. Or am I wrong? (I sure hope so)

I went with a Christian. Afterwards he talked of the action, the plot, the dialogue, the FX, and all the other great things in the movie. I agreed and threw out a string of Messiah elements that seemed to jump off the screen. I was completely surprised that he'd not even considered the parallels -- that he'd not noticed a single reference. Now that seems far-fetched.

Next time you go, notice the way the JC's get tossed around in the dialogue. Lots of visual and verbal cross-references as well. One such example is explained over at:

http://www.cephalopod.com/inksac/inksac.html#bottom

Came here from there and there you were. Well done.

Forgot to mention that I'm beginning to play with this topic at my site, but there's no link there to that page. If you're interested, drop by:

http://www.ix625.com/matrix.html

Meantime, I'm interested in hearing more from you and very curious of how others will react when peering through this reference frame.

If you want a good computer/God connection you might consider this place:

http://www.discoveryseminar.org/cgibin/var/aishdisc/index.html

Seems some mathematicians and physicists put an old Hebrew legend to the test and the Torah (the source of the first five books of the Bible) passed. The results were published in 1994 after six years of peer review.

See Statistical Science, Vol. 9, No. 3, pp 429-438.

And re: the Messiah connection...
[reposted from Imagery and Metaphor]

Hey, it looks like we're not a couple of kooks drawing bizarre conclusions from a pitifully faulty frame of reference...

"Well, you know, Neo means new, it means change," Larry Wachowski [one of the writer/directors] suggests. "All the names were chosen very deliberately, and we wanted to put as many things... hidden in the movie, as many literary allusions ... we sort of think that makes it rich, more dense -- more stuff to think about and talk about."

From a review/interview at:

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9903/31/matrix/index.html

Again from the same source:

And if Reeves' character is a savior, or Christ figure, then what of Fishburne's character, Morpheus?

"I think of him as almost a John the Baptist myself, actually," Fishburne says, referring to the Biblical holy man who traveled the countryside baptizing the faithful in preparation for the arrival of the Messiah.

Darn Mike u beat me to the analysis of the Morpheus in relation to the Savior character NEO. I, too analogized him to John the Baptist. Ok..I think we are all on the right track here. Uh...even the ship had a Biblical name. This gets better and better and better. keep going guys...this is fascinating.

Check the top of the page. cecilc beat us both.

Of course, Mike...Kudos to you Cecilc. I even visited your web site prior to coming here. Mike...I was referring to the John The baptist analogy...I looked for that analogy in Cecil's analysus but didn't see it. but Cecil...u da man!!! <smile>

Ok...wait. Mike I saw YOUR web site this morning...not Cecil's. I'm ok..I'm at work supporting high speed data cable modems for customers who don't have a clue...I guess its rubbing off. LOL

By the way...can someone please answer my question under 'What the Oracle said'. Thanks

SummerBreeze: Check the last couple lines of cecilc's first entry. (J the B reference can be found there)

cecilc: Forgot to tell you that kongfu (see entry at my thread) posted a John the Baptist observation back at The Matrix forum before your post here. Credit where credit was past due now paid in full. Also getting the polite "forget that Christian crap" over at "Imagery and Metaphor" as anticipated.

I wonder what perceptual nether world we inhabit. I say that because I fully expect a brush-off (or well-aimed counter-punch) from the "conservative crowd" as well. (I've already encountered this in face to face discussion). Hard to blame either camp for this response. This issue, like politics in America, seems to distort personal perceptions. Polarization follows. Meaningful dialogue is replaced with reflexive dismissal of opposing (or alternate) views. Dogma replaces contemplation. Tension builds...

Like everyone else, I’m not immune to my own reflexive reactions to certain stimuli. Are the AI’s really a metaphor for this mechanical behavior?

This puzzle-piece seems to fit that hole in the good vs evil duality theme I introduced in heavensent1’s “Went into it with blinders on....WOW!!” thread yesterday. If the violence was one of the primary metaphoric elements in this story (as I firmly believe), then it follows that the evil is not an external foe.

If the battlefield is within, the artificial reality is, like the AI’s, a human creation. Dr. Frankenstein’s monster is alive and well. I see him every morning when I shave.

This is way too cool..had to sign up..first time poster.

Re- religious imagery..you forgot "Doubting Thomas"...Keanu even did an interview (its the same interview where Fishburne discusses feeling like his character is John the Baptist) in which the inverviewer makes some comment re "Doubting Thomas" and Keanu says something like yea,yea you get it.

I must say, I went to this movie just expecting an action flic but I was startled by the depth of imagery and allegory. There is so much here that someone involved with the script or the basis for the story had to know and <understand> many aspects of the Messianic story of Christ found in the Bible.

I think you guys are right on target with what this movie is about! I liked cecilc’s comment that this is “not THE Messiah Movie… Just A Messiah Movie.” It’s an allegory, and all allegories generally break down at some points, but the main story is told. The Messianic allegory contained in this film breaks down at some points, but there is so much there! For instance:

When it is explained how things got the way they were (machines in control) we understand that it was the result of Man’s efforts and decisions that created the potential for that world to exist in that way (it was Man’s fault). What Christians call sin is the enslavement to self and death that is a choice made (consciously or unconsciously) by Man. According to the Messianic story, Man cannot escape this enslavement on his own. That’s why there is a need for a Messiah. You see, Neo is the savior, he is the Christ, the One. He is the only one with the power to break through and stop the cycle.

I hadn’t thought of the John the Baptist parallel until I read this thread, very good point. He was even paving the way for Neo to come onto the scene just like John the Baptist did in the Messianic story.

The thing about the Agents taking over the bodies of humans and having to use them as their connection to the supposed “reality” was very intriguing. The parallel can be mad to demons who’s only real connection with the physical world is through human influence. Hmm.

The idea of a Judas was mentioned in this thread too. He was selling out to the authorities just as Judas sold out the Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

What about this whole good vs. evil scenario and that resurrection scene? (This was the clincher for me) It was interesting that Neo died as a replacement (as a sacrifice?) for Morpheus (perhaps for the rest of humanity) just as the Messiah died as a replacement for our humanity. Before Neo was killed the humans were powerless against the Agents. He was killed, then he was resurrected. It’s not that anyone else resurrected him, it’s like he resurrected himself (interesting parallel). And after he came back, the Agents (evil, the enemy, whatever) no longer had any power over him. This is a strong parallel to the Messiah’s resurrection and his triumph and destruction over the power of evil over humanity. Then Neo stated that he would tell the others about the truth and begin to open their eyes to it. Christ did the same thing. Very intriguing!

Is what we think is real truly real? What is the truth? That, I think, is the question that this film is trying to ask….

Just wanted to say thanks.

Wow i'm so happy I came on line today. I was trying to explain the hole biblical line thing to my freinds last night after we saw it (first time) but they all wanted to go home to bed.

I agree with Ephemeral. And if this is allegory, didn’t Christ himself teach in the same way. A few more points to consider; Could the scene where Morpheus is fighting Neo, with everyone watching, be akin to John the Baptist baptizing Jesus? Is Trinity playing the part of Mary Magdalene, who loved Jesus and anointed him with her tears? How about the fact that Morpheus almost “lost his head” as the real John the Baptist did.

Does anyone really doubt this is a Messiah movie?

cecilc, thanks for sharing your insights about "the matrix." i've had a great time reading the follow ups. notice how intensely we look for an interpretation to the movie that will allow us to include its story into our world-view. there is something inside us that wants to believe - a former divinity's residual effect looking for its true home.

cecilc et. al.
I agree wholeheartedly with you and others. The imagery is meant to add to the story, to make us thing about our beliefs and how our belief structure fits in with everyone elses.

I am a Christian and I caught most of the parallels between Jesus Christ and the Matrix/Neo. I found the film completely enlightening. I am sick and tired of Hollywood's stereotypical portrayal of Christians as something bad. Being able to take an intelligent action movie and extend the imagery and ideas into our own lives makes for far better entertainment, as well as opening our minds to different ideas.

I found the entire experience exciting, enlightening, and thought-provoking. We have to constantly question our beliefs and our actions in order to validate them.

As Troy said to Neo in the movie:

"You're my savior man. My own personal Jesus Christ."

No coincidence,...it was all prelude! And a reference for your future use!

By the way, I've put up a web page about this very topic (and it will probably remain "under construction" for awhile - but the beginnings are there!). It's at:

http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81

Bonjour cecilc.
You are right about a Messiah Movie.
It is amazing how many Messiah, The One, are "supposed" to be on Earth as of now. There is the One that Benjamin Creme says he is promoting, in England. There is Sai Baba in India that does some tricks to impress the sheeps. There is Rael, The extraterrestrial One. And we are talking about "serious" people here !.(Well May I have some doubts!)
There is also, from http://www.lucistrust.org/, "the externalisation of the hierarchy" and "the return of Christ" books that are funny to read. It says that in 1945, Christ decided
to come back with the help of the "avatar of synthesis".
That one is Aurobindo Ghose that you can read from Satprem's book "aurobindo or the adventure of consciouness". Finally, to put that all together there is Trinity:

"The Day After Trinity (1945 ).Fifty years after the first nuclear weapon exploded into the desert sky over New Mexico, the specter of total annihilation has become a part of our everyday reality. Jon
Else's Academy-Award-nominated documentary probes the mind in which that explosion fi rst occurred, chronicling the life and times of J. Robert Oppenheimer, the
charismatic, later tragic, renaissance man who launched the nuclear age.
Assembling rare archival footage and first-person interviews with the nobelists and bright young patriots who built the bomb, The Day After Trinity remains unsurpassed
in any medium as an exploration of the events leading up to the Trinity test at Alamago rdo on July 16, 1945. With the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the buoyant
spirit of the war effort gives way to the grim reality of Cold War, and the elegiac unraveling of the life of Robert Oppenheimer gives The Day After Trinity an emotional force a nd focus
that no other documentary on the subject has achieved."

This is funny. I guessed the Brothers new all of this. Is someone plalying with our minds just to make us confuse.
Smile, and keep a critical mind.
(8->
Amiral Papillon

cecilc: use my words [or at least the one's you like] as if they were your own.

I've explored the number of this beast elsewhere, but for Neo [as Christ figure] wouldn’t it seem that The Matrix [as Satan’s world of illusion] is more a distraction than the real enemy? Isn’t the real struggle an internal affair? It didn’t take a bigger gun, just a bigger leap of faith.

Or am I mistaken?

Wasn’t it doubt that Neo [Thomas] needed to overcome [with, of course, a little help from his friends] in order to finally become The One incarnate?

Just thinkin’ out loud.

ps to the rest of you good people: I’ve also asked permission to quote. Please respond via “A question to all members: May I quote you?”

Thanks.

Neo / Eon / One

I forgot to say this part out loud: Wonderful observations, gang! Refreshing to read such lucid dialogue.

Hey cecile!

I don't think that Neo couldn't know he was The One I think it's more that he couldn't be TOLD he was The One.If the Oracle had told him difinitively that he was The One he would have continued to deny it. By leaving it open ended, by telling him that he would know if he was or not it left the door open. It gave Neo room to realize that he could do things that no one else could, that he succeded where others failed. I actually don't think he realized that he was The One, I think he just realized his own potential and accepted the fact that what he had thought was real all his life wasn't and that he couldn't pretend it was. Thus, paving the way for Enlightenment.

I'm Buddhist, my dad's a Buddhist minister, so I didn't catch all the biblical references, well except for the name "Trinity", the "Resurrection", the "Eden" and "Exile from Eden" reference, and the potential Christ implications. I just wanted to say thanx for the additional insight.

The MATRIX is a futuristic extravaganza that would use bible, philosophy, mythology, even fairy tales such as Alice wonderland to suggest that reality.
-ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY

All religious belief have the same motifs,
(Refer to Bill Campbell's Faces of God)
Jesus, Buddha, Don Juan? etc... aren't immortals,But simply amplified human beings.

The little summary of the Matrix in my newspaper (Edmonton Journal) even says:

"Reeves plays a Christ-like redeemer who must lead the people in a parallel universe to Zion. Fishburne is the John the Baptist figure, and there's even a Judas for those who like a little betrayal with their yarns."

So I guess it is like that?

to megapolis, who wrote:
"All religious belief have the same motifs, Jesus, Buddha, Don Juan? etc...aren't immortals,But simply amplified human beings. Essentially, we can all be the ONE."

I must say that I disagree with your statement. I don't think all religious beliefs have the same motifs. and if you're saying that all religions are true and lead to the same god, i don't that's true either. There are some religious beliefs that aren't even theistic (that is, they don't have a "god").
also, christians would say that jesus was not merely an "amplified human"; but instead, he is indeed immortal (that's the point...that's why jesus is different). christians believe jesus has two natures in one person...these two natures being humanity and divinity.
one more thing...i think the idea that "we can all be the ONE" is essentially human pride. that's what happened to adam and eve, and that's what happens to all of us. that's why we all need THE Savior.

First of all, I apologize for using the words 'religious Beliefs', it should have been just Mythologies.

Also it was Joseph Campbell. Allow me to make my correction here.

Perhaps I shouldn't make such a statement when I don't have all the data myself.

Help me out here, How come in the bible, there wasn't any records of Jesus' younger days. Now who's to say he never traveled the world, studied different ancient philosophies and learn to perform miracle works, meditate for days in deep trance without food or water. And all Through his awareness, and vast knowledge,transform into an Amplified Human Being. And....ultimately Becomes a the Savior.

Just so happened the Wachowski Bros of his time were there to write a book about it.

I asked a friend where is so and so,she replied: 'he found God' I asked: isn't finding God really about finding ONEself? Once again I apologize to anyone if I had offended them.

Resurrection

Reincarnation

Death and Rebirth Transformation

Want to have some fun?

There are those who have given me a rather hard time these last few years,
But if you'll access Deja News and search on:
"timrue@mindspring.com" in the date range just
prior to the first contact with Trinity 2/19/98

say from feb. 1st 98 to feb 19th 98

gee I hope I got the year right.

Anyway, there is a bit about the double edge sword.

A revelation thing?

It's not in a single thread but a theme followed.

have fun.

BTW, I'll be 42 9/19/99
(the day after last contact with neo)
Where did I see "41" in the movie?

Have only seen it once and can only remember one 41...

"There is no spoon." [cut elevator cable on 41st floor and head on up the shaft]

To Megapolis
Hi there again, you were questioning Jesus Childhood, well, there is very little mention of it from the time he was two (when he fled with his family to Egypt) until twelve. At twelve he was in Jerusalem and was missing for two days. Eventually his parents found him in the temple and when asked why he was there (he had been teaching the preists) he said "Did you not know I would be in my Father's house?" He was always known as being the prophet from Gallilee because that is where he lived most of his life, but you're right it mostly speaks of 33 and on because that is when he began his ministry.

Sorry for all who are looking for strictly a Matrix thread here, This comment I beleive came from the fact that NEO did not believe he was the Messiah whereas Christ did. There are amny Parallels however as you can all see in above comments. I highly recommend the movie to anyone though....it is especially good for any movie to be able to spark conversation such as this.

cecilc and Ronin57: After hours of searching I finally remembered to ask God’s help [I can be so dense!] and the passage just falls open. [Amazing how this always seems to work. And even more amazing that I keep forgetting to ask.]

Re: Did Jesus always know he was The One?

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
-- Isaiah 7:14-16

Isaiah was a pretty cool dude, eh?

Reader's digest reply [we're headin' out the door]:

Remember that meal on the ship?

While we both see the Messiah parallels, have you considered the second coming story in addition to the ol' standby? He was learning to see [eyes hurt because he had never used them] and so much more for the first time. There's more than one level to the Good Book [or any good book for that matter]. Maybe learning to speak and learning to speak the Truth happen at two different stages in one's life [or even in The One's life].

Just a thought [incomplete though it be].

Hello, again, gang!

Don't forget to paste this address in your web browser one of these trips:

http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81

(if they were smart, they'd have given us some way to link it ourselves! But HTML and UBB codes are OFF!).

The 2nd Coming,....???! I like it!! I know what book of the Bible I'm reading tonight!

cecilc: You mean you'd not considered it from that perspective?

3seas: you sure it wasn't 42 you heard?

Gardy,

But it's at 41 that I'm realizing there is no spoon.

Hard to explain at the moment how this realate my efforts in real life.
But the oracle said Neo was holding back, waiting for something.
This I understand and this I am doing. But it's more of neading the clay
in preparation of using the clay. Perhaps to make another vase.

Has anyone noticed that Neo is unaware that he's caught within a dream just like the protagonist in The Last Temptation of Christ?

Mike,...
No,...I hadn't considered ANYTHING to do with the 2nd coming. The parallels with Jesus' FIRST appearance here were enough to keep me hopping! But YOU must be thinking of something or you wouldn't have brought it up!
C'mon,...spill it! Cause I'm blind on this one, man! Show me the light! You know, I just heard this morning that there are TWO sequels in the works now! I'm very interested in seeing how they expand on the parallels that we've seen in this first installment!
And sorry,...haven't seen The Last Temptation!

Hey...

Did anyone notice that The Matrix was originally scheduled to open on April 2nd. April 2nd was Good Friday.

Pretty creepy, given some of the messiah issues it has raised.

Creepy? How 'bout wonderful!

Cecil: Mr. Mom duties... will post answer when my little one naps.

Hmm. The man says, “Spill it!”

I guess he wants something to wash down all those bread crumbs I’ve been scattering about. [been drawn into a fencing match over in the enlightened mind pt 2... come watch or join in]

Cecil & company [re: the Second Coming]: Let’s say, hypothetically, that we sit at the end of the second spiritual day after the crucifixion. [you know, based on the ol’ “A day is like a thousand years to God” Biblical passages] Big stuff is about to happen.

Now if this were true, there’d be signals flashing all over the place to let the crew know. Right?

Let’s say that God’s not bound by linear time constraints, so he knew a little about mass media way back when and he thought, “Hey, this’d be a good way to get the message across.” so he proceeds to improvise.

What’s that? Oh yeah, it’s not your mainstream explanation, but follow along for a minute... Improvisation’s how God works around the limits we force on him, you know, ‘cause of free will and the wrench that one represents in the smooth gears of Creation --Take One. Remember, we’re living in Take Two [see Genesis ch 1 and 2 for details] and it’s here that God added mercy so we could have a shot at a happy ending. [made for a lot of extra work for the Big Guy, but hey, that’s why he gets top billing]

Now any artist, no matter the medium, will tell you about those moments of inspiration. A writer might say, “Oh man, it’s like the words just flowed onto the page” or something like that. That ain’t God pulling the strings -- it ain’t control -- it’s cooperation. It’s teamwork. Heck, it’s cool. It’s fun. And it pays a lot of bills if you get good at it.

Anyway, to make a long story short [and probably a little more confusing] this signal is wrapped in metaphor and layered throughout our history in religion, philosophy, language, literature, [and now, as the effect approaches real-time results] movies, commercials -- you name it. Learn the metaphoric language and hold on to your jaw. [it hurts if you let it drop to the floor]

One more place you’ll find the message... If you’ve read much of the Old Testament, you know where to look [or should I say, listen?] How ‘bout I quote from Dream Yet Complete [you can find the rest of it back at ix625.com]:

Thank goodness jamming sessions, still rock there by the shore
Doubt’s reign bowed all the errors, until the great encore

Oh heck, you want answers, not clues, right?

Okay...

1) The Big Guy loves music.

2) The Kid said it’d be built on Rock.

----- ----- -----

A’course, this’s all just hypothetical [wink... nudge... smile]

Tao, your profile says that your interests are "information". You've just displayed a total lack of it!

Tao: How would you like to have been raised by someone who protected you completely? You’d never have to know pain or suffering. You’d never have to make a single mistake. You’d never have to make a single decision.