Author Topic:   The Matrix as Messiah Movie
cecilc
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posted 04-03-99 06:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Not THE Messiah Movie, mind you. Just A Messiah Movie. I don't think it just a coincidence that The Matrix is released the weekend of Easter this year! C'mon, think about it! 1) A Savior is born - LITERALLY, out of that mucky, womblike incubator that Neo was in. 2) A group of people believe that he is The One - the one whose coming was foretold and would bring about a new world order. 3) There are two brothers in this following. 4) The name of the underground city that is almost holy to this group - Zion! 5) The girl's name - Trinity! 6) Neo (and the group) are betrayed from within their own group. 6) Neo is killed by the authorities, and, instead of 3 days - in 3 MINUTES he is resurrected with a HIGHER POWER than he had before. 7) Neo is represented as a BRIGHT, WHITE light after he inhabits the Agents body and it explodes. 8) After his resurrection, it was obvious that Neo would have a dramatic effect on his world. Hey, I don't have all the answers here, people. But I don't think Hollywood believes in this kind of coincidence any more than I do! And these kinds of parallels are not idly done. Even with the high-tech and cool shades, this is a Messiah movie. Don't get me wrong, this is a very cool flick, and I loved it - I'll see it again! The effects in the movie are startling - and even Lawrence Fishburne played a cool role with Morpheus (or was he John the Baptist.......). I'm interested in your comments.

12321
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posted 04-03-99 07:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Hey! You beat me to it. You're pretty brave to walk amongst the Sci-Fi crowd and just toss that one out. I'm impressed.

I ain't puttin' down science fiction or its fans by any means. Heck, I'm one of 'em. I've got bookshelves filled with the marvelous stuff and plenty of ticket stubs to prove it. It's just not a very common interpretation. Or am I wrong? (I sure hope so)

I went with a Christian. Afterwards he talked of the action, the plot, the dialogue, the FX, and all the other great things in the movie. I agreed and threw out a string of Messiah elements that seemed to jump off the screen. I was completely surprised that he'd not even considered the parallels -- that he'd not noticed a single reference. Now that seems far-fetched.

Next time you go, notice the way the JC's get tossed around in the dialogue. Lots of visual and verbal cross-references as well. One such example is explained over at:

http://www.cephalopod.com/inksac/inksac.html#bottom

Came here from there and there you were. Well done.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
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posted 04-03-99 08:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Forgot to mention that I'm beginning to play with this topic at my site, but there's no link there to that page. If you're interested, drop by:

http://www.ix625.com/matrix.html

Meantime, I'm interested in hearing more from you and very curious of how others will react when peering through this reference frame.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Velocity Boy
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posted 04-03-99 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Velocity Boy     

its also about computers did you notice that part also? Good work with indepth investigating there...

12321
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posted 04-03-99 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

If you want a good computer/God connection you might consider this place:

http://www.discoveryseminar.org/cgibin/var/aishdisc/index.html

Seems some mathematicians and physicists put an old Hebrew legend to the test and the Torah (the source of the first five books of the Bible) passed. The results were published in 1994 after six years of peer review.

See Statistical Science, Vol. 9, No. 3, pp 429-438.

And re: the Messiah connection...
[reposted from Imagery and Metaphor]

Hey, it looks like we're not a couple of kooks drawing bizarre conclusions from a pitifully faulty frame of reference...

"Well, you know, Neo means new, it means change," Larry Wachowski [one of the writer/directors] suggests. "All the names were chosen very deliberately, and we wanted to put as many things... hidden in the movie, as many literary allusions ... we sort of think that makes it rich, more dense -- more stuff to think about and talk about."

From a review/interview at:

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9903/31/matrix/index.html

Again from the same source:

And if Reeves' character is a savior, or Christ figure, then what of Fishburne's character, Morpheus?

"I think of him as almost a John the Baptist myself, actually," Fishburne says, referring to the Biblical holy man who traveled the countryside baptizing the faithful in preparation for the arrival of the Messiah.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

SummerBreeze
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posted 04-03-99 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SummerBreeze   Click Here to Email SummerBreeze     

Darn Mike u beat me to the analysis of the Morpheus in relation to the Savior character NEO. I, too analogized him to John the Baptist. Ok..I think we are all on the right track here. Uh...even the ship had a Biblical name. This gets better and better and better. keep going guys...this is fascinating.

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SummerBreeze

12321
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posted 04-03-99 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Check the top of the page. cecilc beat us both.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

SummerBreeze
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posted 04-03-99 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SummerBreeze   Click Here to Email SummerBreeze     

Of course, Mike...Kudos to you Cecilc. I even visited your web site prior to coming here. Mike...I was referring to the John The baptist analogy...I looked for that analogy in Cecil's analysus but didn't see it. but Cecil...u da man!!! <smile>

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SummerBreeze

SummerBreeze
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posted 04-03-99 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SummerBreeze   Click Here to Email SummerBreeze     

Ok...wait. Mike I saw YOUR web site this morning...not Cecil's. I'm ok..I'm at work supporting high speed data cable modems for customers who don't have a clue...I guess its rubbing off. LOL

By the way...can someone please answer my question under 'What the Oracle said'. Thanks

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SummerBreeze

12321
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posted 04-04-99 07:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

SummerBreeze: Check the last couple lines of cecilc's first entry. (J the B reference can be found there)

cecilc: Forgot to tell you that kongfu (see entry at my thread) posted a John the Baptist observation back at The Matrix forum before your post here. Credit where credit was past due now paid in full. Also getting the polite "forget that Christian crap" over at "Imagery and Metaphor" as anticipated.

I wonder what perceptual nether world we inhabit. I say that because I fully expect a brush-off (or well-aimed counter-punch) from the "conservative crowd" as well. (I've already encountered this in face to face discussion). Hard to blame either camp for this response. This issue, like politics in America, seems to distort personal perceptions. Polarization follows. Meaningful dialogue is replaced with reflexive dismissal of opposing (or alternate) views. Dogma replaces contemplation. Tension builds...

Like everyone else, I’m not immune to my own reflexive reactions to certain stimuli. Are the AI’s really a metaphor for this mechanical behavior?

This puzzle-piece seems to fit that hole in the good vs evil duality theme I introduced in heavensent1’s “Went into it with blinders on....WOW!!” thread yesterday. If the violence was one of the primary metaphoric elements in this story (as I firmly believe), then it follows that the evil is not an external foe.

If the battlefield is within, the artificial reality is, like the AI’s, a human creation. Dr. Frankenstein’s monster is alive and well. I see him every morning when I shave.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 04-04-99 10:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Mike,...past due credit's better than no credit at all, huh?! I'm glad that you were able to provide that! And I'm glad that somebody else GOT IT! Congrats to him!
I have fully expected the "religious brush-off" as well (as if we had to nit-pik this film to find these things!). But, to my amazement, ALL the e-mai I've been getting is of the "...I never realized all that until I saw your comments..." kind of thing. I have yet to be flamed - and now that I've said that ......

gables
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posted 04-04-99 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gables     

This is way too cool..had to sign up..first time poster.

Re- religious imagery..you forgot "Doubting Thomas"...Keanu even did an interview (its the same interview where Fishburne discusses feeling like his character is John the Baptist) in which the inverviewer makes some comment re "Doubting Thomas" and Keanu says something like yea,yea you get it.

Also, and don't laugh because this is Really reaching. When the oracle turns Neo's hand's over it could also be like when "Doubting Thomas" had to "see the nail prints and also spear scar" of our Saviour in order to truly "believe" He was the One. Maybe that one came to me because of Easter. Any Opinions??

phil121
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posted 04-04-99 08:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for phil121   Click Here to Email phil121     

have yall discussed the Judas part of the story--that guy who just wanted to remember nothing and go back to his pointless life?

Ephemeral
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posted 04-04-99 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ephemeral   Click Here to Email Ephemeral     

I must say, I went to this movie just expecting an action flic but I was startled by the depth of imagery and allegory. There is so much here that someone involved with the script or the basis for the story had to know and <understand> many aspects of the Messianic story of Christ found in the Bible.

I think you guys are right on target with what this movie is about! I liked cecilc’s comment that this is “not THE Messiah Movie… Just A Messiah Movie.” It’s an allegory, and all allegories generally break down at some points, but the main story is told. The Messianic allegory contained in this film breaks down at some points, but there is so much there! For instance:

When it is explained how things got the way they were (machines in control) we understand that it was the result of Man’s efforts and decisions that created the potential for that world to exist in that way (it was Man’s fault). What Christians call sin is the enslavement to self and death that is a choice made (consciously or unconsciously) by Man. According to the Messianic story, Man cannot escape this enslavement on his own. That’s why there is a need for a Messiah. You see, Neo is the savior, he is the Christ, the One. He is the only one with the power to break through and stop the cycle.

I hadn’t thought of the John the Baptist parallel until I read this thread, very good point. He was even paving the way for Neo to come onto the scene just like John the Baptist did in the Messianic story.

The thing about the Agents taking over the bodies of humans and having to use them as their connection to the supposed “reality” was very intriguing. The parallel can be mad to demons who’s only real connection with the physical world is through human influence. Hmm.

The idea of a Judas was mentioned in this thread too. He was selling out to the authorities just as Judas sold out the Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

What about this whole good vs. evil scenario and that resurrection scene? (This was the clincher for me) It was interesting that Neo died as a replacement (as a sacrifice?) for Morpheus (perhaps for the rest of humanity) just as the Messiah died as a replacement for our humanity. Before Neo was killed the humans were powerless against the Agents. He was killed, then he was resurrected. It’s not that anyone else resurrected him, it’s like he resurrected himself (interesting parallel). And after he came back, the Agents (evil, the enemy, whatever) no longer had any power over him. This is a strong parallel to the Messiah’s resurrection and his triumph and destruction over the power of evil over humanity. Then Neo stated that he would tell the others about the truth and begin to open their eyes to it. Christ did the same thing. Very intriguing!

Is what we think is real truly real? What is the truth? That, I think, is the question that this film is trying to ask….

I appreciated the comments and insights in this thread.

12321
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posted 04-05-99 05:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Just wanted to say thanks.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 04-06-99 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Ephemeral,...very nicely done! And that's a great insight into the demon analogy for the Agents inhabiting a human host for as long as they need it (or it dies! "Dodge this!"). So, along that vein of thought, our "Satan" is the AI, right! Or, maybe, the AI is "possessed" by Satan?

violet-addiction
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posted 04-06-99 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for violet-addiction   Click Here to Email violet-addiction     

Wow i'm so happy I came on line today. I was trying to explain the hole biblical line thing to my freinds last night after we saw it (first time) but they all wanted to go home to bed.

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Rev Gregg
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posted 04-06-99 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rev Gregg   Click Here to Email Rev Gregg     

I agree with Ephemeral. And if this is allegory, didn’t Christ himself teach in the same way. A few more points to consider; Could the scene where Morpheus is fighting Neo, with everyone watching, be akin to John the Baptist baptizing Jesus? Is Trinity playing the part of Mary Magdalene, who loved Jesus and anointed him with her tears? How about the fact that Morpheus almost “lost his head” as the real John the Baptist did.

Does anyone really doubt this is a Messiah movie?

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[i]Black holes are where God divided by zero.[i]

cecilc
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posted 04-06-99 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Amen to that Rev Gregg!!! Ain't no doubt in my mind!

site
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posted 04-07-99 07:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for site     

cecilc, thanks for sharing your insights about "the matrix." i've had a great time reading the follow ups. notice how intensely we look for an interpretation to the movie that will allow us to include its story into our world-view. there is something inside us that wants to believe - a former divinity's residual effect looking for its true home.

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<(:- site -:)>

cecilc
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posted 04-08-99 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Site,...
Thanks for the post. And I agree totally, "there is something inside us that wants to believe..."
I know for a fact (from e-mails that I've received), that there are people out there RIGHT NOW that are in the middle of a spiritual search because of the questions that this movie has raised in them, and the ideas expressed in this topic and in the "Imagery and Metaphor" topic. And to everyone that has mailed me about this: Good Luck! Please let me know how "divinity" touches you!
Cecil

Allison B.
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posted 04-08-99 07:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Allison B.   Click Here to Email Allison B.     

cecilc et. al.
I agree wholeheartedly with you and others. The imagery is meant to add to the story, to make us thing about our beliefs and how our belief structure fits in with everyone elses.

I am a Christian and I caught most of the parallels between Jesus Christ and the Matrix/Neo. I found the film completely enlightening. I am sick and tired of Hollywood's stereotypical portrayal of Christians as something bad. Being able to take an intelligent action movie and extend the imagery and ideas into our own lives makes for far better entertainment, as well as opening our minds to different ideas.

I found the entire experience exciting, enlightening, and thought-provoking. We have to constantly question our beliefs and our actions in order to validate them.

I am looking forward to seeing The Matrix again.

Stealth111
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posted 04-09-99 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stealth111     

As Troy said to Neo in the movie:

"You're my savior man. My own personal Jesus Christ."

Coincidence? I don't think so.

cecilc
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posted 04-09-99 07:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

No coincidence,...it was all prelude! And a reference for your future use!

By the way, I've put up a web page about this very topic (and it will probably remain "under construction" for awhile - but the beginnings are there!). It's at:

http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81

Please, if you have the time, check it out and let me know what you think. Also, if it's OK, I'd like to be able to quote everyone that's contributed to this topic at the site. But I will only do that with your permission(s). Thanks,
Cecil

gmbois
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posted 04-10-99 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gmbois   Click Here to Email gmbois     

Bonjour cecilc.
You are right about a Messiah Movie.
It is amazing how many Messiah, The One, are "supposed" to be on Earth as of now. There is the One that Benjamin Creme says he is promoting, in England. There is Sai Baba in India that does some tricks to impress the sheeps. There is Rael, The extraterrestrial One. And we are talking about "serious" people here !.(Well May I have some doubts!)
There is also, from http://www.lucistrust.org/, "the externalisation of the hierarchy" and "the return of Christ" books that are funny to read. It says that in 1945, Christ decided
to come back with the help of the "avatar of synthesis".
That one is Aurobindo Ghose that you can read from Satprem's book "aurobindo or the adventure of consciouness". Finally, to put that all together there is Trinity:

"The Day After Trinity (1945 ).Fifty years after the first nuclear weapon exploded into the desert sky over New Mexico, the specter of total annihilation has become a part of our everyday reality. Jon
Else's Academy-Award-nominated documentary probes the mind in which that explosion fi rst occurred, chronicling the life and times of J. Robert Oppenheimer, the
charismatic, later tragic, renaissance man who launched the nuclear age.
Assembling rare archival footage and first-person interviews with the nobelists and bright young patriots who built the bomb, The Day After Trinity remains unsurpassed
in any medium as an exploration of the events leading up to the Trinity test at Alamago rdo on July 16, 1945. With the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the buoyant
spirit of the war effort gives way to the grim reality of Cold War, and the elegiac unraveling of the life of Robert Oppenheimer gives The Day After Trinity an emotional force a nd focus
that no other documentary on the subject has achieved."

This is funny. I guessed the Brothers new all of this. Is someone plalying with our minds just to make us confuse.
Smile, and keep a critical mind.
(8->
Amiral Papillon

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MetaMorphOSER

12321
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posted 04-10-99 08:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

cecilc: use my words [or at least the one's you like] as if they were your own.

I've explored the number of this beast elsewhere, but for Neo [as Christ figure] wouldn’t it seem that The Matrix [as Satan’s world of illusion] is more a distraction than the real enemy? Isn’t the real struggle an internal affair? It didn’t take a bigger gun, just a bigger leap of faith.

Or am I mistaken?

Wasn’t it doubt that Neo [Thomas] needed to overcome [with, of course, a little help from his friends] in order to finally become The One incarnate?

Just thinkin’ out loud.

ps to the rest of you good people: I’ve also asked permission to quote. Please respond via “A question to all members: May I quote you?”

Thanks.

Neo / Eon / One

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
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posted 04-10-99 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

I forgot to say this part out loud: Wonderful observations, gang! Refreshing to read such lucid dialogue.

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ronin57
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posted 04-10-99 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Anyone remeber Tron? Similiar themes (of course then the self-sacrifice was voluntary in that one) Only problem was that Neo did not believe he was the Messiah and in fact tried to convince otherwise. Whereas in life Jesus Christ knew and procalimed it (though somewhat indirectly at times). If you've ever read the Sandman (Neil Gaiman) You'll notice he uses a lot of mythology as well as religious beliefs in his works. He also had a hand in creating the MATRIX comic so this thread would seem to run through the film as well. It is quite obvious they are trying to Draw a Messaih Parallel whether it is a traditional one or not welll, I don't think so. GREAT movie either way, it will definately give Star Wars a run for it's money in my opinion.

cecilc
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posted 04-10-99 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

If you want to get representational about this, (Oh,...let's!) the “Matrix” could represent man’s inability to “see” anything that he isn’t hand-fed (or hardwired!). Morpheus mentioned to Neo in his recruitment speech that Neo had felt something “like a splinter in your mind”. Neo was a human who did see or feel something beyond what the hardwire was feeding him from the Matrix. Neo was tapped into something OTHER than just the Matrix (maybe the same SOMETHING that the Oracle was tapped into). We’ve been seeing examples of this right here on the forum since the movie opened; all kinds of people writing in about all the cool SURFACE things in this movie (fx’s, cool shades, cool fight scenes, etc.) while most have not said ONE THING about the Christ parallels or the religious significance! The things they’ve been responding to is what they’ve been hand-fed! These are the people who will “pop” when they’re unplugged! (all of a sudden, I’m feeling very enlightened!) Having said that,...Mike, I agree, the internal struggle to overcome the "hand-feeding" and trust that feeling that there IS something else - something bigger and more expansive! We have seen the enemy and he is US - our own intellect, which is so quick to deny a spiritual connection to anything because it's not logical!
But sometimes,...I think it just takes a BIG GUN! Lots of big guns! Christ was the biggest gun there was - and I think Neo is also a big gun!

Ronin57
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posted 04-10-99 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

To Cecilc
Hey man, good post especially the part about us denying spirituality because it is not "Logical". I am currently studying to go into ministry, and that is the biggest facade there is. It is not illogical it is simply that the logic is beyond our comprehension much like we would never belive that the world we are in is could ever be constructed (The Matrix itself) It goes to the idea of how could a three two dimensional being ever believe he was in a 3(4 I guess) dimensional world if he could not lift his hands UP!
I think like NEO we all have that little "glitch" that tells us there is more than what we see around us, more than our simple senses tell us. We are asked to reach UP out of our confined logic and into something new that brings true knowledge.

cecilc
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posted 04-10-99 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Mike,...
You asked me how I knew that Neo COULDN'T know that he was The One. And you've been waiting patiently for an answer (while I've been frantically trying to think one up ....). There's nothing in the movie that tells me that, so I can't quote a character for it! But I look at it this way - if someone who really KNEW told me that I would die in a car accident on I-75 at 7:30 AM on June 15th - would I even LOOK for my car keys that day?! Hell, no!!! If someone had told Neo that there was an Agent in room 303 waiting for him - would he have gone there? I don't think so! And (forgive me if this seems blasphemous) I just can't imagine Christ knowing at age 15 that He would die a horrible death at age 32, even also knowing that He was to be resurrected! (At age 30, I would've been at the northernmost border of the WORLD!) There are some things about our "destiny" that we would just as soon NOT know - and, for that reason, we can't know ANY of it!

cecilc
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posted 04-10-99 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Ronin57,...
Man, you're a genius!

Ronin57
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posted 04-10-99 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Forgive my aweful typos, it is simply two dimensional (not 2,3) I was just wired and couldn't type straight

Ronin57
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posted 04-10-99 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Hey guys again,
I quite wenjoy this thread, I'm going out to see the movie a second time now because of it. Cecilc, you said you'd avoid your destiny, and I agree I think anyone would. As far as a Biblical parallel, there is the Garden of Gethsemane where Christ struggles with his mortality and the physical as well as spiritual pains he will endure. I don't think there is quite the scene in the Matrix (it seems he just doesn't accept it, but who knows the workings of his mind) but I am going to take another look at it (and I'm going too try and avoid looking too hard so that I end up seeing only what I'm looking for). Hopefully I'll be able to post something more useful this evening after I've absorbed it a little more.

cecilc
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posted 04-10-99 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Ronin57,...
The Garden of Gethsemane was a huge moment for Christ, I think. And I think it was there that He came face to face with His own "car accident on I-75" future. And I think it absolutely terrified Him!
But, you're right, I don't remember Neo having a similar moment leading up to his confrontation with Agent Smith in room 303. I'll await your post on that.

Scorch
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posted 04-10-99 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorch   Click Here to Email Scorch     

Hey cecile!

I don't think that Neo couldn't know he was The One I think it's more that he couldn't be TOLD he was The One.If the Oracle had told him difinitively that he was The One he would have continued to deny it. By leaving it open ended, by telling him that he would know if he was or not it left the door open. It gave Neo room to realize that he could do things that no one else could, that he succeded where others failed. I actually don't think he realized that he was The One, I think he just realized his own potential and accepted the fact that what he had thought was real all his life wasn't and that he couldn't pretend it was. Thus, paving the way for Enlightenment.

I'm Buddhist, my dad's a Buddhist minister, so I didn't catch all the biblical references, well except for the name "Trinity", the "Resurrection", the "Eden" and "Exile from Eden" reference, and the potential Christ implications. I just wanted to say thanx for the additional insight.

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image reality illusion imagine
Free Your Mind...

megapolis
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posted 04-10-99 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for megapolis   Click Here to Email megapolis     

The MATRIX is a futuristic extravaganza that would use bible, philosophy, mythology, even fairy tales such as Alice wonderland to suggest that reality.
-ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY

All religious belief have the same motifs,
(Refer to Bill Campbell's Faces of God)
Jesus, Buddha, Don Juan? etc... aren't immortals,But simply amplified human beings.

Essentially, we can all be the ONE.

Spanky The Dragon
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posted 04-10-99 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spanky The Dragon   Click Here to Email Spanky The Dragon     

Spanky the Dragon has serveraly meeted near these gods and they deny anything to do with The Matrix (or, as the dragons have started calling it, The Matrox)... They were almost angered by the words that inquired about their supposed assistance in this filmo, and they killed many things as their answer's sidekick. "Homes made of god's legskin will be removed if this fire of lipstick is aggravated once more" is what gods said yesterday. I do not appreciate having to hear these words on my bortoday.

Ronin57
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posted 04-10-99 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

To Megapolis
I feel I would have to disagree with you, who were these humans amplified by? How can they teach such different theologies? I know which I believe and have no wish to say others beliefs are wrong, but to me there is but ONE chosen we cannot be freed form a world by someone who is also in that same world, just as NEO would not be able to be freed from his world without Morpheous' help. In some ways Morpheous is like God reaching into the world.

Neo Anderson
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posted 04-10-99 10:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neo Anderson   Click Here to Email Neo Anderson     

The little summary of the Matrix in my newspaper (Edmonton Journal) even says:

"Reeves plays a Christ-like redeemer who must lead the people in a parallel universe to Zion. Fishburne is the John the Baptist figure, and there's even a Judas for those who like a little betrayal with their yarns."

So I guess it is like that?

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"You have to see it yourself"

kongfu
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posted 04-10-99 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kongfu   Click Here to Email kongfu     

to megapolis, who wrote:
"All religious belief have the same motifs, Jesus, Buddha, Don Juan? etc...aren't immortals,But simply amplified human beings. Essentially, we can all be the ONE."

I must say that I disagree with your statement. I don't think all religious beliefs have the same motifs. and if you're saying that all religions are true and lead to the same god, i don't that's true either. There are some religious beliefs that aren't even theistic (that is, they don't have a "god").
also, christians would say that jesus was not merely an "amplified human"; but instead, he is indeed immortal (that's the point...that's why jesus is different). christians believe jesus has two natures in one person...these two natures being humanity and divinity.
one more thing...i think the idea that "we can all be the ONE" is essentially human pride. that's what happened to adam and eve, and that's what happens to all of us. that's why we all need THE Savior.

by the way, great comments everyone...especially Ephermeral!

megapolis
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posted 04-10-99 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for megapolis   Click Here to Email megapolis     

First of all, I apologize for using the words 'religious Beliefs', it should have been just Mythologies.

Also it was Joseph Campbell. Allow me to make my correction here.

Perhaps I shouldn't make such a statement when I don't have all the data myself.

Help me out here, How come in the bible, there wasn't any records of Jesus' younger days. Now who's to say he never traveled the world, studied different ancient philosophies and learn to perform miracle works, meditate for days in deep trance without food or water. And all Through his awareness, and vast knowledge,transform into an Amplified Human Being. And....ultimately Becomes a the Savior.

Just so happened the Wachowski Bros of his time were there to write a book about it.

I asked a friend where is so and so,she replied: 'he found God' I asked: isn't finding God really about finding ONEself? Once again I apologize to anyone if I had offended them.


megapolis
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posted 04-10-99 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for megapolis   Click Here to Email megapolis     

Resurrection

Reincarnation

Death and Rebirth Transformation

All about coming back.

3seas
Member
posted 04-11-99 07:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3seas   Click Here to Email 3seas     

Want to have some fun?

There are those who have given me a rather hard time these last few years,
But if you'll access Deja News and search on:
"timrue@mindspring.com" in the date range just
prior to the first contact with Trinity 2/19/98

say from feb. 1st 98 to feb 19th 98

gee I hope I got the year right.

Anyway, there is a bit about the double edge sword.

A revelation thing?

It's not in a single thread but a theme followed.

have fun.

BTW, I'll be 42 9/19/99
(the day after last contact with neo)
Where did I see "41" in the movie?

------------------
3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!
Timothy Rue -- What's DONE in all we do? * AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE *
Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/


12321
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posted 04-11-99 07:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Have only seen it once and can only remember one 41...

"There is no spoon." [cut elevator cable on 41st floor and head on up the shaft]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ronin57
Member
posted 04-11-99 08:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

To Megapolis
Hi there again, you were questioning Jesus Childhood, well, there is very little mention of it from the time he was two (when he fled with his family to Egypt) until twelve. At twelve he was in Jerusalem and was missing for two days. Eventually his parents found him in the temple and when asked why he was there (he had been teaching the preists) he said "Did you not know I would be in my Father's house?" He was always known as being the prophet from Gallilee because that is where he lived most of his life, but you're right it mostly speaks of 33 and on because that is when he began his ministry.

Sorry for all who are looking for strictly a Matrix thread here, This comment I beleive came from the fact that NEO did not believe he was the Messiah whereas Christ did. There are amny Parallels however as you can all see in above comments. I highly recommend the movie to anyone though....it is especially good for any movie to be able to spark conversation such as this.

------------------

12321
Member
posted 04-11-99 09:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

cecilc and Ronin57: After hours of searching I finally remembered to ask God’s help [I can be so dense!] and the passage just falls open. [Amazing how this always seems to work. And even more amazing that I keep forgetting to ask.]

Re: Did Jesus always know he was The One?

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
-- Isaiah 7:14-16

Isaiah was a pretty cool dude, eh?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ronin57
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posted 04-11-99 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Hey Mike,
I checked otut that verse and a commentary on it. It's interesting, the hebrews used the term "old enough to eat curds and honey" as a parallel to the age of being able to talk, so in relation to did he always know? Well old enough to talk seems about right I guess...

12321
Member
posted 04-11-99 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Reader's digest reply [we're headin' out the door]:

Remember that meal on the ship?

While we both see the Messiah parallels, have you considered the second coming story in addition to the ol' standby? He was learning to see [eyes hurt because he had never used them] and so much more for the first time. There's more than one level to the Good Book [or any good book for that matter]. Maybe learning to speak and learning to speak the Truth happen at two different stages in one's life [or even in The One's life].

Just a thought [incomplete though it be].

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ronin57
Member
posted 04-11-99 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

To the Palendrome (Mike):
Interesting point except in that verse of course it speaks as knowing right and wrong and the curds and honey thing within the same context, so I'd assume they'd mean the same thing, of course as you say the are many levels to the Book, I had a small chance to check out your site. (though I have to go back when I have a bit more time) I noticed in your guestbook that you (somewhere on the site, though I have yet to find it) must have a section on the BIBLE CODE I am interested in your thoughts on this. I have browsed through the book (it's lying somehwere around my place) I just have to actually read it still.

cecilc
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posted 04-12-99 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hello, again, gang!

Don't forget to paste this address in your web browser one of these trips:

http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81

(if they were smart, they'd have given us some way to link it ourselves! But HTML and UBB codes are OFF!).

The 2nd Coming,....???! I like it!! I know what book of the Bible I'm reading tonight!

Regards,
Cecil

12321
Member
posted 04-12-99 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

cecilc: You mean you'd not considered it from that perspective?

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mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Gardy
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posted 04-13-99 02:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gardy   Click Here to Email Gardy     

3seas: you sure it wasn't 42 you heard?

------------------
"We both know..."

3seas
Member
posted 04-13-99 02:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3seas   Click Here to Email 3seas     

Gardy,

But it's at 41 that I'm realizing there is no spoon.

Hard to explain at the moment how this realate my efforts in real life.
But the oracle said Neo was holding back, waiting for something.
This I understand and this I am doing. But it's more of neading the clay
in preparation of using the clay. Perhaps to make another vase.


------------------
3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!
Timothy Rue -- What's DONE in all we do? * AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE *
Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/


NeoRezz
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posted 04-13-99 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NeoRezz   Click Here to Email NeoRezz     

WOW. What an amazing thread-post. My wife and I saw the movie on opening night and we're still talking about it and have come around to the Biblical references and also the literary references. I don't know how many of you have read Neuromancer but remember the Zionites? The city of Zion? There's a ton from Gibson to find in this movie which I find only suiting, afterall, he is the father of Cyberspace.
I love it that so many have found the correlation of John the Baptist and Morpheus and Trinity and Mary Magdalene, Judas and Cypher...the list goes on. I really didn't have an overwhelming post to make, just wanted to be part of this particular folder as I feel it is the most intellegent, conversational, and enlightening post to date on this site. Any body up for an email chat, just send 'em my way. I'll answer everyday with thoughts and observations as I attend the movie more times in the future. Thank you for your time.

12321
Member
posted 04-14-99 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Has anyone noticed that Neo is unaware that he's caught within a dream just like the protagonist in The Last Temptation of Christ?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
Member
posted 04-14-99 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Mike,...
No,...I hadn't considered ANYTHING to do with the 2nd coming. The parallels with Jesus' FIRST appearance here were enough to keep me hopping! But YOU must be thinking of something or you wouldn't have brought it up!
C'mon,...spill it! Cause I'm blind on this one, man! Show me the light! You know, I just heard this morning that there are TWO sequels in the works now! I'm very interested in seeing how they expand on the parallels that we've seen in this first installment!
And sorry,...haven't seen The Last Temptation!

NeoRezz,...
Thanks for your post. Glad to have you!

snowcrash
Member
posted 04-14-99 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for snowcrash   Click Here to Email snowcrash     

Hey...

Did anyone notice that The Matrix was originally scheduled to open on April 2nd. April 2nd was Good Friday.

Pretty creepy, given some of the messiah issues it has raised.

------------------
"...there is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path."

12321
Member
posted 04-14-99 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Creepy? How 'bout wonderful!

Cecil: Mr. Mom duties... will post answer when my little one naps.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ronin57
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posted 04-14-99 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Hey guys, back from sleeping, (changing shifts always does that) NeoRezz, I've read neuromancer, Gibson is one of my favorite authors by far. Another book I would recommend that was very interesting was The Diamond Age by Neil Stevenson, at least I think that's the author's name (it was a long time ago)

12321
Member
posted 04-14-99 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Hmm. The man says, “Spill it!”

I guess he wants something to wash down all those bread crumbs I’ve been scattering about. [been drawn into a fencing match over in the enlightened mind pt 2... come watch or join in]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
Member
posted 04-14-99 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Cecil & company [re: the Second Coming]: Let’s say, hypothetically, that we sit at the end of the second spiritual day after the crucifixion. [you know, based on the ol’ “A day is like a thousand years to God” Biblical passages] Big stuff is about to happen.

Now if this were true, there’d be signals flashing all over the place to let the crew know. Right?

Let’s say that God’s not bound by linear time constraints, so he knew a little about mass media way back when and he thought, “Hey, this’d be a good way to get the message across.” so he proceeds to improvise.

What’s that? Oh yeah, it’s not your mainstream explanation, but follow along for a minute... Improvisation’s how God works around the limits we force on him, you know, ‘cause of free will and the wrench that one represents in the smooth gears of Creation --Take One. Remember, we’re living in Take Two [see Genesis ch 1 and 2 for details] and it’s here that God added mercy so we could have a shot at a happy ending. [made for a lot of extra work for the Big Guy, but hey, that’s why he gets top billing]

Now any artist, no matter the medium, will tell you about those moments of inspiration. A writer might say, “Oh man, it’s like the words just flowed onto the page” or something like that. That ain’t God pulling the strings -- it ain’t control -- it’s cooperation. It’s teamwork. Heck, it’s cool. It’s fun. And it pays a lot of bills if you get good at it.

Anyway, to make a long story short [and probably a little more confusing] this signal is wrapped in metaphor and layered throughout our history in religion, philosophy, language, literature, [and now, as the effect approaches real-time results] movies, commercials -- you name it. Learn the metaphoric language and hold on to your jaw. [it hurts if you let it drop to the floor]

One more place you’ll find the message... If you’ve read much of the Old Testament, you know where to look [or should I say, listen?] How ‘bout I quote from Dream Yet Complete [you can find the rest of it back at ix625.com]:

Thank goodness jamming sessions, still rock there by the shore
Doubt’s reign bowed all the errors, until the great encore

Oh heck, you want answers, not clues, right?

Okay...

1) The Big Guy loves music.

2) The Kid said it’d be built on Rock.

----- ----- -----

A’course, this’s all just hypothetical [wink... nudge... smile]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Tao
Member
posted 04-15-99 04:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tao   Click Here to Email Tao     

This is so simple, just find out if the Wachowski's believe in god. If not, to bad for you believers. And about what Ephemeral said about the parallel between humans creating machines that becomes the Matrix, and that evil and enslavement is created by us is a bunch of bologna. I mean, if god were omnipotent he'd be able to see that we'd get ourselves into trouble: hurt, maim, and kill each other, he'd lovingly spare us, but nope he decided that we are his playthings and would provide him with entertainment. Evil and evslavement was created by god since he is omni-everything.

acrobat
Member
posted 04-15-99 05:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

Tao, your profile says that your interests are "information". You've just displayed a total lack of it!

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He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

12321
Member
posted 04-15-99 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Tao: How would you like to have been raised by someone who protected you completely? You’d never have to know pain or suffering. You’d never have to make a single mistake. You’d never have to make a single decision. You’d never have to learn a single thing. [Do you see where this is going?]

One day I’m gonna have to let my little girl walk across the street by herself. One day I’m gonna have to let her live her own life and make her own mistakes. One day I’ll have to set her free to find herself. Those’ll be the hardest things I’ll ever have to do. I’ll pray that she asks for advice, or at least comes to me for comfort once in a while, but I’ll have no guarantees.

The letting go? It’s called Love.

God loves us. Story goes, he’s coming back to see how we did. He’s gonna be happy and he’s gonna be disappointed. But, because he loves us, he’s giving us a big ol’ last chance. The Book says that no one knows the exact time, that he’ll come like a thief in the night, but it doesn’t say that he won’t make a lot of noise right before he finally pops in to say hi [and bye].

If you listen, you can hear the “Ready or not, here I come... I mean it, I’m really coming... I’m not kidding...”

No good parent wants their child to fail. God’s no different.

Does this make sense?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
Member
posted 04-16-99 05:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Tao,...
C'mon, man. "...evil and enslavement was created by God."????! 'Fraid not!
Evil actually was introduced into this world by Satan - God TRIED to provide an evil free environment, but .... there was that free will issue and man making his own choices and all that!

Wouldn't you RATHER be able to make your own choices rather than have a choice shoved down your throat? God loves us enough to let US make those choices - with the realization that YES! we are going to screw up occasionally. But God has a plan to help us with that, too!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81
cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
Member
posted 04-16-99 06:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

And now we return to our irregularly unscheduled deprogramming...

I mentioned Kazantzakasis’ “The Last Temptation of Christ” before but never made The Matrix connection for you.

That last temptation [and connection]?
Christ finds himself lost within a dream world.
Sound familiar?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

3seas
Member
posted 04-16-99 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3seas   Click Here to Email 3seas     

12321,

B-) shhhhhhhhhh!

Theif in the night, sorta like you set out to do something and you are so busy doingthe steps that
when you get done you look back and say to yourself, wow, I'm already done?
And you look to see for sure that you didn't miss something.

Teamwork! Something to make the impact of saying "hey we already done?" even stronger.

And one more thought - to let someone else do everthing for you, is to become spoiled, to not know
genuine self-esteam. Sorta the last temptation? Laziness?

Hmmm, does anyone really think there are enough angels to do everything for everyone?
And I personally like the feeling of a team job well done. Something to talk about in celabration of
accomplishment (and I'd like to thank the academy and ........)




------------------
3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!
Timothy Rue -- What's DONE in all we do? * AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE *
Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/


3seas
Member
posted 04-16-99 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3seas   Click Here to Email 3seas     

12321,

Perhaps this is an example of looking back to see what all I missed?

your name?

Constraints as Creation Tools

a)There is the possible in physical reality, within and beyond
our current knowledge.

b) We define our reality and create tools based on what we
define. Then we use these tools to refine and/or redefine our
understanding of reality, and then refine and/or redefine our
reality. Knowing our definitions and tools are not perfect but
serve us to control physical reality better and better, via
creating new and better tools. This process or cycle is a
constant. We discard or replace some tools for better tools. We
can also go the other direction by replacing better tools with
inferior tools.

c) To completely understand and control physical reality,
something changes. The constant is understood and applied by
choice. The question of how to do something, or anything, becomes
a choice. The question of "what to do?" becomes the main
question.

To Do Something:

c) What to do? Let's do this objective: create and use the V.I.C.
One question will be "which direction?" Doing means movement and
time.

b) We use the constant, set the motion in the direction we want,
and apply constraints (tools) to reach the objective.

a) There is the possible in physical reality, within and beyond
the current constraints (tools) of what we are doing.



This is a part from my "VIC must read" web page

There is also something else I recall. Something about Morpheus
telling Neo that once he took the red pill, he couldn't go back.
(which the Matrix promise to Cypher is no proof you can.)

In the process of honesty, some things get exposed to the point
of no return. I.E. my web page that concluded the four part talk
I had with Petro. I took the red pill on this.

------------------
3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!
Timothy Rue -- What's DONE in all we do? * AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE *
Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/


12321
Member
posted 04-16-99 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Um... what?

I’m painting our home sweet home for the next few days, so I’ll be popping in and out during the day. I understand I’ve got to see certain parts of your web page for specific info, but for the rest... talk to me like I’m a little slow.

There’s a semi-continuous stream of thought flowing in this thread. It’s not necessary for you to join that flow, but so I can understand, does what you’re saying fit with some of this flow and if so which parts? [truly -- no offense or criticism inferred -- I’m really lost here]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Tao
Member
posted 04-16-99 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tao   Click Here to Email Tao     

12321, I didn't say that having ups and downs was bad. i was just saying that god has nothing to do with anything. i don't need crutches in my life.

acrobat
Member
posted 04-16-99 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

"...god has nothing to do with anything."

please, Tao, rebut this statement:

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

12321
Member
posted 04-16-99 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Please everybody, no flaming. It won’t help.

----- ----- -----

Tao,

Please tell me what it was that offended you. I must have said something to trigger that response. It would help me to understand and to avoid making the same mistake in the future. I’d appreciate any information you’d care to share.

Thanks,

Mike

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

12321
Member
posted 04-16-99 05:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

You beat me to the post, acrobat.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Brad Sargent
Member
posted 04-16-99 05:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brad Sargent   Click Here to Email Brad Sargent     

Enjoying this thread! I've been labeling The Matrix as "The Gospel for Cyberpunks" and wanted to pick up on topic NeoRezz posted on Gibson and his Zionites. I think there's an ironic / paradoxical twist in Matrix: Nebachednezar (not in my SpellCheck, sorry) is "king" in the (unstated but understood) Babylon of the AI's meta-Matrix outside control over the virtual world of the Matrix. As punks would say, Don't sell your soul to Babylon. That, plus Zion as the name of the home base for humans and the prominence of African American characters makes an intriguing tie-in as a platform to talk about a different interpretation of Scriptures with Rastafarians.

Also noticing lots of anagrams and word play: The ONE/NEO/EON. Even password=STEAK is a twist of the word STAKE, which plays on the passage in the book of Matthew where Jesus tells people to take up their CROSS daily and follow Him. The Greek word for cross is STAUROS, which literally means a stake.

Anyone seeing other wordplays?

Gotta zip ...

------------------
The Postmodern Guy

Ronin57
Member
posted 04-16-99 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Hey guys,

Interesting coments from Brad Sargent. And 3seas, I'm afraid you lost me as well, i'm the baby gone with the bathwater.
Now Tao explain this to me, because a lot of people have this belief, why is the belief that God is actually a person or has anything to do with our lives a crutch? Perhaps you don't understand the feeling of being FREE. I cannot wait until heaven when I will no longer have temptation. There is nothing like having the burden removed. To me, saying God is like a crutch and essentially ignoring him is the same as taking a fat blue pill and trying to rationalize it. If you have some other reason let me know. Like Mike I have no wish to critisize but I'd like to know where that "crutch" idea comes from.

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sdwoods63
Member
posted 04-16-99 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sdwoods63   Click Here to Email sdwoods63     

I did not see any mention of this parallel, but what about at the end of the movie when Neo "ascended into heaven"?

Ronin57
Member
posted 04-16-99 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

I just watched the Truman show and had a though I felt might contribute to this thread. Some people's idea of God is that of Ed Harris in that film. All powerful and perhaps benevolent (it does seem that he does love Truman, especially in the last scene) Now perhaps he is motivated by money but I don't think so, after all he had to give up hgis life in order to provide Truman a beleivable world.
The God I beleive in is not like this. He would be the one showing the door out. He wanted the REAL world to be perfect but knew that if it was we would never truly love him, just as Truman could not love someone who held him captive in his "perfect world" He had to give us free choice, there was no other way. He also knew we would mess up but provided a solution...FREEDOM! Through Christ. Forgive my emotional outburst but sometimes I can't help myself.

12321
Member
posted 04-16-99 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

sdwoods63: Good one. He had to fly for the story to be complete. When he took off, this huge “YEAH!” just shot out of me. I’ve never yelled in a theater before. Kinda took me by surprise...

Back at ix625 BlindEye’s got this little story about the Superman/Jesus connection. I loved the use of the phone booth in that scene.

And like Neo said [paraphrased]:
The endings will come later, for now let's just begin

Brad Sargent: You’re the first person I’ve noticed who’s dug the EON out of NEO. The steak/stake/stauros was really sharp. [no pun intended... honest!]

Ronin57: Ain’t it a shame we feel like we gotta apologize for gettin’ excited? [I feel the same way sometimes] Who made-up that crazy rule?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Trin3
Member
posted 04-16-99 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trin3     

What great discussions on this site! It's great to see that there are people out there who actually take the time to think deeply about some things. Most people I know tell me their "brain hurts" and they change the subject. Anyway......Great discussion, keep it up!

Someone earlier (sorry I can't remember who) asked about the 2nd Coming connection. I believe it has a lot to do with the second coming. Remember when Morpheus is talking to Neo on the ship about how it all began? He said that there was another man who started to free people from the matrix. That man died, but said that he would come again. Neo is the second coming. Agree?

Curious........does anyone have any insight as to why Switch is in white when everyone else is always in black. There MUST be a reason.

12321
Member
posted 04-16-99 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Agree.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ronin57
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posted 04-17-99 01:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

hmm...interesting point, now traditionally white symbolizes purity, from when squires would wear white on the eve of their knighthood, which of course translated into white for the bride at weddings. It could also portray innocence as that sort of runs along the same veins. She was an innocent victim of Cypher's, of course how innocent were any of them?

These are just ideas and aren't really meant to answer but I like the idea and want to see what other people think on white for Switch (maybe she just looks good in white I dunno).

tracer
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posted 04-17-99 01:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer     

As this is my first post, let me begin by saying how refreshing this thread has been! I had been very discouraged by most of the responses on the Forum page. However, the comments you all have made here are intelligent, stimulating and thought provoking. Thank you for reaffirming my excitement about this film, and for sharing your many wonderful insights.

Now to the point...a couple of perspectives I haven't seen mentioned yet. One of Mike's posts (4-4-99) in the Imagery and Metaphor thread refers to duality, and his comments, along with the quotation "You seem to be living two lives Mr. Anderson," led me to consider the duality of Christ. Christ, being both fully man and fully God, did possess two distinct natures and exist on two different planes. One the one hand he was a part of this world, subject to its laws and manifestations. He "obeyed the system" so to speak. On the other hand he is above this world, with the knowledge and power to create and/or manipulate this world as he pleases (although it wasn't until later in his earthly life that he began to reveal those powers). Similarly, Neo lived as both a follower of the system (as an employee of a respected firm) and as a hacker (in opposition to the system). It is interesting that Christ was considered a criminal by many, and ultimately put to death as such. As Neo pursued his "hacker nature", his true powers as the savior began to manifest themselves.

My second observation concerns the scene when Neo visits the Oracle and breaks the vase. I'm thinking that the Oracle would not tell Neo he was the One, for the reason that Neo would then begin to THINK he was the One and ACT like he was the One. In doing this he would be distracted from ever KNOWING that he was the One. As someone else has mentioned, the truth of his nature had to be self-discovered from within. The significance of the vase was to provide a parallel for this critical point. Because the Oracle told him he would break the vase, he did! Self-fulfilling prophecy- the Oracle needed him to BE the One rather than trying to BECOME the One.

Any thoughts? My apologies if others have already made either of these points.

------------------
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully..."

12321
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posted 04-17-99 08:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

tracer: Let me get this straight. You read this and at least one other thread BEFORE composing your first post? What kind of thoughtful nonconformist are you? [grin]

Along that dual nature of the protagonist observation: You mention [and add insights] the vase incident. Anyone connect the vase to the concept of “treasures in jars of clay [2 Corinthians ch 4] and play with that dual nature idea?

The Nag Hammadi Codex and Dead Sea Scrolls usually pop into my mind when I hear that phrase. Treasures indeed! But what about us? Aren’t we “jars of clay” as well? For the Oracle, that jar/vase was represented as transparent. She could see inside. Now play that off tracer’s post.

I hope you keep posting, tracer. Great observations. [and just before I typed the period at the end of that sentence, I got an email with this quote: “if you don’t break it you’ll never know how to fix it”]

Coincidence is one of the languages of God.

Trin3: First off, I was so happy to agree with you. It DOES make sense, doesn’t it? And about Switch and the white/black clothing question. [you’re right... there MUST be a reason] Short answer/clue: Switch.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

niten
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posted 04-17-99 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for niten   Click Here to Email niten     

Re: switch in white
i dont know why she wears but it may be important to remember that this is her resonant image, the way she sees herself, maybe not as part of the group, i dont know

niten
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posted 04-17-99 08:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for niten   Click Here to Email niten     

Re: switch in white
i dont know why she wears but it may be important to remember that this is her resonant image, the way she sees herself, maybe not as part of the group, i dont know

cecilc
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posted 04-17-99 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

I'm sorry, everyone,...
but I just can't see the "Neo as 2nd coming" thing. I mean, I read the reference and I understand what you're saying,...but it doesn't ring true to me. I see Neo as a continuation of "the good fight" to free man but not as a parallel to the 2nd coming. And that has to do with two things: firstly, it won't be a reincarnation that comes as Christ at the 2nd coming - it will be Christ himself that shows up and starts the party going! Secondly, Neo doesn't "appear" here as Christ will appear when He returns.
To me, the parallels to Christ's FIRST appearance among us - from the "virgin" birth to the resurrection and "ascension" - are much more powerful and resonant than the 2nd coming parallels.

------------------
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cecilc
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posted 04-17-99 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Excellent point, niten,...very well done!

CLEAVE
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posted 04-17-99 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CLEAVE   Click Here to Email CLEAVE     

This is an extremely intelligent and enjoyable discussion. For an in-depth analysis of the religious, cultural, and technological aspects of The Matrix, take a look at www.cleave.com.

We'll be adding more next week, but meanwhile please spread the word if you think it's worthwhile.

http://www.cleave.com

12321
Member
posted 04-17-99 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

CLEAVE: Just took a quick look. Got you bookmarked and will explore later today.

Cecil: I hear you and I understand what you’re saying. I’m sure not discounting all the parallels with JC’s first swing through this world of illusion. Heck, you know we agree on all that.

Focus, for a moment, on the end of the movie. Had Neo hung up the phone and turned to address the people as The One, he’d just be... well, the Book says there’s gonna be a lot of these guys saying “here I am” [or “there he is”] and from postings in some other threads, we get a peek at a few. [I’m not criticizing or suggesting we point out who and where they are -- in fact, I urge you not to -- I’m just making a point]

When The One comes, it’s gonna be: Look! Up in the sky. It’s a bird... It’s a plane... It’s...” Superman is a wonderful metaphor for Jesus. Of course it’ll break down at some point, all metaphors will. But it’s right there in front of us. And God does work in mysterious ways...

I’ve mentioned that there’s a signal -- a coherent, cohesive signal -- that carries this message. A wake up call is being broadcast as we speak. As for the call Neo makes at the end of the movie... he says:

“I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here, to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world, without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world, where anything is possible. Where we go from there, is a choice I leave to you.”

It’s important to remember he’s not talking to us in that scene. He’s talking to the other side. I think he’s giving them one last chance. The AIs may not represent machines, but mechanistic thought. Free will dictates uncertainty. Mercy allows for last chances.

The Bible is full of stories we’re often taught before we read. Sometimes this affects what we see when we read it for ourselves. This is the ultimate action-adventure story.

----- ----- -----

I’d like to take more time crafting this and cleaning up all the incomplete thoughts, but it feels more important just to post this now, so...

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

acrobat
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posted 04-17-99 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

I think not only is Neo giving them (the AI) a last chance, Neo is also giving them (the AI) fair warning.

Mark 13:23
But take heed; behold, I have told you everyting in advance.

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Trin3
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posted 04-17-99 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trin3     

cecilc..
I definatley see your point. Most of the parallels ARE to the first coming, but you can't ignore the others.......unless there are other explainations.
For instance, if this is all about the first coming, who was Morpheus talking about when he referred to a man who came before, a man who started the movement, a man who said he would come again? I don't remember anything like that in the Old Testament. Am I forgetting something?

Someone enlighten me! (smile)

cecilc
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posted 04-17-99 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Ok, Mike,....
I'm in on it now! Thanks! I'm anxious to hear your "cleaned up" version now!
Now,...is that mechanistic, rigid thought capable of appreciating a last chance offer; is it capable of heeding a fair warning? (that's for you, acrobat!). My idea of mechanistic thought is that it doesn't bend - it's fearless. To accept a "last chance" or "fair warning" you would have to FEAR the consequences - is that fear in the AI's repetoire.

------------------
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acrobat
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posted 04-17-99 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

To Trin3

"...a man who came before, a man who started the movement..."

Maybe a hint lies here:

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Matthew 1:1
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

cecilc
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posted 04-17-99 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hey, Trin3,....
Sorry if my comments came off as a slam of other viewpoints,...not my intent at all. That particular idea just never hit me, that's all

------------------
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cecilc@mindspring.com

12321
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posted 04-17-99 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Cecil: Didn’t those two agents look kinda scared after Neo entered and transmuted(?) their buddy. Plus there’s always the power of Love. [maybe that’s what the flash of light in that scene was] Powerful stuff. [to me, without a doubt, Love’s more powerful than Fear] Good not to discount that lever. [I know you know this... just flappin’ my lips]

Now about the Second Coming of the X-Man...

Just have a sec, so short and sweet: I see the whole film as prelude. The movie ends the moment before the real action begins -- [and here’s the part about the Second Coming] -- Neo, as The One, is heading for the sky, about to rouse humanity from their sleep and show them “A world where anything is possible.” A new world? The old one’s kinda trashed, right? Well, that resonates with the story in the Book, right?

There’s other stories in that Book that resonate with this movie. We’ve just begun to explore. Agree?

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

cecilc
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posted 04-17-99 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

....and look for my new book "The Revelation to Cecil" in bookstores soon......" :-) :-) :-) Dense is as dense does, eh?!
As always, Mike, you're light years ahead of us all! Way to go! Now THAT is 2nd coming material!

Re the other two agents: Yea,...when you have the players in what amounts to a computer game run from you, then you ARE the new ace!

------------------
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cecilc@mindspring.com

Trin3
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posted 04-17-99 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trin3     

cecilc --

Don't worry....I never took your comments as a slam (it's so hard to read where people are coming from, emotionally, in these threads). I WELCOME the different viewpoints. If they were all the same it wouldn't be any fun. Besides, I completly see what you are saying and have learned something.....imagine that!

acrobat --

I thought of David too, when I was contemplating what Morpheus said. After all, Jesus was the "descendant of David." But did David ever claim that he would come again? Maybe I'm trying too hard.

12321 --

I totally agree with you. There is A LOT in Revelations that sound amazingly similar to the Matrix (or is it the other way around
Cecilc inspired me to read the book of Revelations again to see what I could find (it's been a long time). Here are some interesting passages that popped out at me:

Rev 2:11 -- "Those who win the victory will not be hurt by the second death." Morpheus had said that some people are not ready to believe. Those who do not escape the Matrix, insist on believing in the illusion, will die when the Matrix is "turned off". Those who believe and can let go of the illusion will "reign on a new earth."

Rev 2:17 -- "I will give each of them...a new name..."

Rev 3:17 -- "You say 'I am rich and well off; I have all I need.' But you do not know how miserable and pitiful you are! You are poor, naked, and blind."

Rev 5:6 -- "...seven spirits of God that have been sent through the whole earth."
Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, Cypher, Mouse, Epoch, and Switch? They were the only ones who ventured out into the Matrix.

Rev 11:3 -- makes a reference to "witnesses dressed in sackcloth."

Rev 11:18 -- "The time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Comments on those parallels?

12321
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posted 04-17-99 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Holy Moly Trin3!

Cecil: Richard Bach wrote: You teach best what you most need to learn.

I really need to learn this stuff. That isn’t false modesty... I'm smart enough to know them's true words. It's you and the rest of this crew who's helping me. And that’s true too.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

MatthewDay
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posted 04-17-99 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Another interesting topic - being born again... Each of the rebels essentially had to choose to be "unplugged" from the matrix and born again into the real world.

MatthewDay
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posted 04-17-99 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Another interesting topic - being born again... Each of the rebels essentially had to choose to be "unplugged" from the matrix and born again into the real world.

Starlight Crystal
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posted 04-17-99 05:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Starlight Crystal   Click Here to Email Starlight Crystal     

Ceclic, I agree with the things you pointed out in the movie. You're quite right about it.

acrobat
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posted 04-17-99 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

To Trin3

I actually had Abraham in mind as the earlier personage before Neo. Abraham was "the father of multitudes", and made several covenants with God. There were no more covenants made by God with humans UNTIL Christ came along! Then a NEW convenant was made with humanity thru Christ's death and resurrection. Abraham is the parallel with that "earlier man" (the father of the movement). Let me know if this makes sense!

Your revelations from Revelations are revealing! Very insightful and enlightening! Thank you!

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

MatthewDay
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posted 04-17-99 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Another interesting parallel...

Neo's ascension at the end of the movie, just as Christ ascended into Heaven. Christ will return again...will Neo?

MatthewDay
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posted 04-17-99 07:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Acrobat -

Your "Father Abraham" theory makes perfect sense to me!!!

tracer
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posted 04-18-99 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracer     

Wow! Some impressive analysis is evolving here.

acrobat: I think you are right on target concerning the Abraham/"earlier man" connection. If there is to be a sequel, I hope they consider a prequel (if Star Wars can do it...) and tell the story of this "father of the rebellion". Since he was the first, he must also be the "father" of Zion. There are a lot of story lines to be explored there.

Been thinking about the significance of water (as mentioned in another thread). Could Neo's plunge into the water tank following his expulsion from the pod contain some baptismal references? It wasn't a declarative act on his part, so I may be reaching here.

Building from MatthewDay's comment...to me, the critical moment is the decision to take the red vs blue pill. A conscious decision to follow the Truth or accept the Lie. The act of taking the pill itself has overtones of communion to it, although I don't believe that is intended. Also, once the decision is made, it is irreversible. Similar to the "seal" placed on a believer by the Holy Spirit following acceptance of the Savior.

Final thought...I am impressed by the faith displayed by Trinity following the death of Neo. When Christ had died (prior to his resurrection) the disciples literally fell apart and had given up all hope. Not so with Trinity. She had absolute faith in the Oracle (and the higher power the Oracle is a representative of) even in the presence of a dead savior.

cecilc
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posted 04-18-99 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hey, tracer,...

Good post! And I don't think you're reaching at all on the baptismal reference when Neo is "flushed" out of his incubator. You say "...it wasn't a declarative act on his part."

Oh,...but it was! And you covered it in your next paragraph. HE TOOK THE RED PILL! That was his declaration.

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acrobat
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posted 04-18-99 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

"...the faith displayed by Trinity..."

Yes, Trinity has more than faith - she KNOWS! Let's forget about Trinity the "person" for a moment, and put what "Trinity" (as in The Holy ...) REPRESENTS in her place! THAT Trinity KNEW that Christ/Neo would be resurrected and would not die! Trinity the "person" even says it. "So you see,...you can't be dead,...you can't be,...because I love you!" Just as The Holy Trinity loved Christ!

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

MatthewDay
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posted 04-18-99 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Any thoughts out there regarding the Matrix symbolizing Tribulation?? When Neo breaks through and destroys the Matrix could this represent the 1000 year reign of Christ after the Tribulation period?

acrobat
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posted 04-18-99 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

Let's see if I can do justice to the tribulation and 1,000 year reign question without going into the month of May. A disclaimer - please don't take this as Gospel, because, hey,...who really knows - we'll all find out the TRUTH together someday! But this is my best guess.

First, a Cliff Notes version of what I think the Biblical version represents. We (humanity) continue along in our present state of mind and existence until BOOM! the tribulation begins. There is gnashing of teeth, trumpets blow, bowls pour, the earth is rent, the planet goes to hell in a handbasket (pun intended!). At the last trumpet (the 7th trumpet - references are 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, Revelation), Christ takes all the faithfull off the planet.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The tribulation continues until Whoa! Christ himself returns and throws Satan in a holding cell without reading him his Miranda rights! Then the 1,000 year reign begins!

Now,...the Matrix version (according to moi as much in the context of the Biblical version as I can make it!). I agree with cecilc from back up the page a ways about the Matrix representing man's inability to "see" anything beyond what's here and now (in other words, our present day world!). Now we have Neo who is going to BOOM! begin the tribulation by waking up all these humans from their deep sleep and forcing them to look at REALITY! There WILL be hard times, gnashing of teeth, famine - all the things from the Biblical tribulation because the world is basically ALREADY gone to hell! After this battle for the planet with the AI, Neo will symbolically throw the AI into the bottomless pit and that will end the tribulation. A thousand year reign???? Will Neo be immortal by then???? Who knows!

Please let me know if this makes sense!

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Brad Sargent
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posted 04-18-99 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brad Sargent   Click Here to Email Brad Sargent     

Been thinking about MatthewDay's question about whether Neo's shattering of "Agent Smith" could signify the tribulation, second coming, etc. I've only seen the Matrix once (scheduled to have a Matrix-in next weekend with a couple friends - yay!) but as I recall, Neo is resurrected inside the Matrix-world, fights with Smith, then enters him and shatters him from the inside out. Then the other two agents high-tail it outta there.

I kind of took that scene as parallel to 1 Peter 3:18-20, about Christ dying on our behalf, being put to death physically but made alive in the Spirit, and descending into hades, where He preached to those spirits in prison who were sent there during the time of Noah. These were, in my understanding, the "sons of god" (angels, fallen) who we are told cohabited with the "daughters of men" in the early chapters of Genesis. Anyway that passage in Peter, when tied in with the stuff in Genesis, seems to me to be that Christ proclaims the victory as already won, with final sentencing to begin at His second coming. Sort of like Neo's "testimony" of victory to the other two agents when He shatters and scatters Smithy.

Check out Colossians 2:8-15, too, which talks about not being taken captive through philosophies and elementary principles (perhaps spiritual "elementals" as in animistic/pagan religions) of the world, and goes on to say that Christ disarmed the rulers and authorities (in spiritual realms - Ephesians 6:12) and triumphed over them by means of the cross. If I remember right, the Greek word for "triumphed" is something like TRIUMBUO (I had a pastor who used a lot of the Greek and Hebrew in his teaching). This word was used of the triumphal marches when the Roman army defeated an enemy and paraded their captives through the streets of Rome. Then they marched them into the Coliseum, made the captives get on the ground, and a soldier put his foot on the prisoner's neck as a sign of triumph, then killed him with his sword. Gruesome, but a vivid parallel to what Christ did with the spiritual forces of evil - the Agents of evil ... and with a "weak weapon" of the cross.

So, back to whether Neo's breakthrough represents the 1000 year reign after the tribulation, I don't think so, at least not directly. But I think it does fit as a proclamation that the ultimate defeat of the Matrix/evil is imminent, and in that sense, sort of sounds a trumpet for the troops to rally against the enemy.

I think acrobat's response to MatthewDay was really good on how Neo's final message from the phone booth is definitely a Tribulation-type wake-up call to reality instead of lingering in what cecilc talked about as being locked into an inability to see anything beyond what's here and now.

On a different tangent - - cause I'll unlinked from the net for a few days and thought this might be of interest - - I don't think we've hit on the color schemes and symbolisms. The opening part of film is primarily in dark spectrums of greys, blacks, "computer screen" greens and yellow-greens and white-yellow-greens. Not really until Neo takes the pill do you get into a significantly different color scheme and see more blues, blue-black, blue-grey on the hovercraft. Blue, according to one graphic designer friend of mine, is a color signifying hope. Whaddaya think? And are there any major color shifts in the final sequences when the team goes back into the Matrix for the finale? I'll want to be sure to watch for them next viewing. (P.S. If you haven't read the Behind the Scenes Interview on this website, you might want to see what the guy has to say about the color schemes. They really put a lot of thot into everything ...)

Back on-line late this week ...

------------------
The Postmodern Guy

12321
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posted 04-18-99 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Just have a few minutes...

Thoughts on the Trib and timing: It’s true we can’t know the hour or the day [not even JC is hip to that one] but one thing keeps standing out in my mind...

A thousand years is like a day to the Lord.

Jesus rises on the third day, right? But it’s the very beginning of the third day. You could say he rose at the end of the second day...

A thousand years is like a day to the Lord.

And like acrobat mentioned, then there’s a thousand years of peace. Do you see what I’m getting at? [there’s a lot more I’ll fill in but I bet you already know some of it] The time sure seems ripe. And the signals are flashing.

[and Trin3: I’m not ignoring the gems you posted, just swamped with chores]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Brad Sargent
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posted 04-18-99 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brad Sargent   Click Here to Email Brad Sargent     

Been thinking about MatthewDay's question about whether Neo's shattering of "Agent Smith" could signify the tribulation, second coming, etc. I've only seen the Matrix once (scheduled to have a Matrix-in next weekend with a couple friends - yay!) but as I recall, Neo is resurrected inside the Matrix-world, fights with Smith, then enters him and shatters him from the inside out. Then the other two agents high-tail it outta there.

I kind of took that scene as parallel to 1 Peter 3:18-20, about Christ dying on our behalf, being put to death physically but made alive in the Spirit, and descending into hades, where He preached to those spirits in prison who were sent there during the time of Noah. These were, in my understanding, the "sons of god" (angels, fallen) who we are told cohabited with the "daughters of men" in the early chapters of Genesis. Anyway that passage in Peter, when tied in with the stuff in Genesis, seems to me to be that Christ proclaims the victory as already won, with final sentencing to begin at His second coming. Sort of like Neo's "testimony" of victory to the other two agents when He shatters and scatters Smithy.

Check out Colossians 2:8-15, too, which talks about not being taken captive through philosophies and elementary principles (perhaps spiritual "elementals" as in animistic/pagan religions) of the world, and goes on to say that Christ disarmed the rulers and authorities (in spiritual realms - Ephesians 6:12) and triumphed over them by means of the cross. If I remember right, the Greek word for "triumphed" is something like TRIUMBUO (I had a pastor who used a lot of the Greek and Hebrew in his teaching). This word was used of the triumphal marches when the Roman army defeated an enemy and paraded their captives through the streets of Rome. Then they marched them into the Coliseum, made the captives get on the ground, and a soldier put his foot on the prisoner's neck as a sign of triumph, then killed him with his sword. Gruesome, but a vivid parallel to what Christ did with the spiritual forces of evil - the Agents of evil ... and with a "weak weapon" of the cross.

So, back to whether Neo's breakthrough represents the 1000 year reign after the tribulation, I don't think so, at least not directly. But I think it does fit as a proclamation that the ultimate defeat of the Matrix/evil is imminent, and in that sense, sort of sounds a trumpet for the troops to rally against the enemy.

I think acrobat's response to MatthewDay was really good on how Neo's final message from the phone booth is definitely a Tribulation-type wake-up call to reality instead of lingering in what cecilc talked about as being locked into an inability to see anything beyond what's here and now.

On a different tangent - - cause I'll unlinked from the net for a few days and thought this might be of interest - - I don't think we've hit on the color schemes and symbolisms. The opening part of film is primarily in dark spectrums of greys, blacks, "computer screen" greens and yellow-greens and white-yellow-greens. Not really until Neo takes the pill do you get into a significantly different color scheme and see more blues, blue-black, blue-grey on the hovercraft. Blue, according to one graphic designer friend of mine, is a color signifying hope. Whaddaya think? And are there any major color shifts in the final sequences when the team goes back into the Matrix for the finale? I'll want to be sure to watch for them next viewing. (P.S. If you haven't read the Behind the Scenes Interview on this website, you might want to see what the guy has to say about the color schemes. They really put a lot of thot into everything ...)

Back on-line late this week ...

------------------
The Postmodern Guy

MatthewDay
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posted 04-18-99 08:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Acrobat - Thanks for the great insight on the Tribulation/1000 year reign theory!! )

Brad Sargent
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posted 04-18-99 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brad Sargent   Click Here to Email Brad Sargent     

Been thinking about MatthewDay's question about whether Neo's shattering of "Agent Smith" could signify the tribulation, second coming, etc. I've only seen the Matrix once (scheduled to have a Matrix-in next weekend with a couple friends - yay!) but as I recall, Neo is resurrected inside the Matrix-world, fights with Smith, then enters him and shatters him from the inside out. Then the other two agents high-tail it outta there.

I kind of took that scene as parallel to 1 Peter 3:18-20, about Christ dying on our behalf, being put to death physically but made alive in the Spirit, and descending into hades, where He preached to those spirits in prison who were sent there during the time of Noah. These were, in my understanding, the "sons of god" (angels, fallen) who we are told cohabited with the "daughters of men" in the early chapters of Genesis. Anyway that passage in Peter, when tied in with the stuff in Genesis, seems to me to be that Christ proclaims the victory as already won, with final sentencing to begin at His second coming. Sort of like Neo's "testimony" of victory to the other two agents when He shatters and scatters Smithy.

Check out Colossians 2:8-15, too, which talks about not being taken captive through philosophies and elementary principles (perhaps spiritual "elementals" as in animistic/pagan religions) of the world, and goes on to say that Christ disarmed the rulers and authorities (in spiritual realms - Ephesians 6:12) and triumphed over them by means of the cross. If I remember right, the Greek word for "triumphed" is something like TRIUMBUO (I had a pastor who used a lot of the Greek and Hebrew in his teaching). This word was used of the triumphal marches when the Roman army defeated an enemy and paraded their captives through the streets of Rome. Then they marched them into the Coliseum, made the captives get on the ground, and a soldier put his foot on the prisoner's neck as a sign of triumph, then killed him with his sword. Gruesome, but a vivid parallel to what Christ did with the spiritual forces of evil - the Agents of evil ... and with a "weak weapon" of the cross.

So, back to whether Neo's breakthrough represents the 1000 year reign after the tribulation, I don't think so, at least not directly. But I think it does fit as a proclamation that the ultimate defeat of the Matrix/evil is imminent, and in that sense, sort of sounds a trumpet for the troops to rally against the enemy.

I think acrobat's response to MatthewDay was really good on how Neo's final message from the phone booth is definitely a Tribulation-type wake-up call to reality instead of lingering in what cecilc talked about as being locked into an inability to see anything beyond what's here and now.

On a different tangent - - cause I'll unlinked from the net for a few days and thought this might be of interest - - I don't think we've hit on the color schemes and symbolisms. The opening part of film is primarily in dark spectrums of greys, blacks, "computer screen" greens and yellow-greens and white-yellow-greens. Not really until Neo takes the pill do you get into a significantly different color scheme and see more blues, blue-black, blue-grey on the hovercraft. Blue, according to one graphic designer friend of mine, is a color signifying hope. Whaddaya think? And are there any major color shifts in the final sequences when the team goes back into the Matrix for the finale? I'll want to be sure to watch for them next viewing. (P.S. If you haven't read the Behind the Scenes Interview on this website, you might want to see what the guy has to say about the color schemes. They really put a lot of thot into everything ...)

Back on-line late this week ...

------------------
The Postmodern Guy

Sampson
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posted 04-19-99 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

Sorry kids i got half way through this thread and my brain was full.

could be some interesting stuff in the last half, but i'm sorry if i missed it.

The comment that I wanted to make is this:

I don't think any of you will get it, but I'll say it.
The Matrix is a wonderful metaphorical movie master piece. This you agree on?
The Bible is a wonderful metaphorical book, a master piece. To me it isn't much more.

Why would I say that about the Bible?
Because I have seen and remebered things about life that have proved it to me.

If you want some insight on what I mean just ask. If you think i'm out in left feild tell me.

still a great post though

Sampson says free your mind

Sampson
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posted 04-19-99 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

Sorry kids i got half way through this thread and my brain was full.

could be some interesting stuff in the last half, but i'm sorry if i missed it.

The comment that I wanted to make is this:

I don't think any of you will get it, but I'll say it.
The Matrix is a wonderful metaphorical movie master piece. This you agree on?
The Bible is a wonderful metaphorical book, a master piece. To me it isn't much more.

Why would I say that about the Bible?
Because I have seen and remebered things about life that have proved it to me.

If you want some insight on what I mean just ask. If you think i'm out in left feild tell me.

still a great post though

Sampson says free your mind

Post is slow today so i will write more.

Neo over came all of Agent Smiths power to supress him. Smith still wouldn't give up. Neo went and completely ate his AI code. Absorbed him inside and out. So where is Agent Smith? The AI units have life outside the matrix also. Smith resents having to live in the matrix also. just some neat thought on what happens to the AI.

In the end could AI and humans co-exist
Many would say no, but maybe they could work things out?

12321
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posted 04-19-99 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Okay Sampson: “The Bible is a wonderful metaphorical book, a master piece. To me it isn't much more.”

Explain the Torah Codes to me.
[see: http://www.ix625.com/codexgo.html]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Sampson
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posted 04-19-99 10:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

So the Bible is more than just a good metaphorical book...

maybe. God spoke through the bible?
I believe that we are all expressions of God so is the creation around us. If we are part of god and all come from god no one is more god than anyone else. The bible might not say that. The bible is a soap opera. The world we live in is. If we choose it to be.

Metaphore? My most favorite one in the bible is the apple in the garden of eden. The apple of knowledge of good and evil. Duality! Duality is at the route of suffering. So why does god do this? ask him/her yourself.

Sampson

I don't really believe that things happened like it is written in Genesis, but I don't really care either cause it doesn't make a difference.

acrobat
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posted 04-19-99 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

Thank you, 12321!

Sampson (and first of all, I must say that I think it absolutely hilarious that you take a name that SOUNDS SO Biblical!)...I'm so sorry that the Bible doesn't mean much to you. I was in my mid-30's before I saw the value in that Book - because God PROVED it to me!

The good news to me, Samson, is that you are explainable:

John 4:48
Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe."

I, too, await your answer to 12321's question.

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

acrobat
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posted 04-19-99 11:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for acrobat   Click Here to Email acrobat     

I've said it before,...I'll say it again.

Please, Sampson, rebut this statement:

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

------------------
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Ronin57
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posted 04-19-99 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Hey there gang,

To Sampson, your beliefs are quite common today, it is the thought that we are all a part of God, or god or whatever. This makes no sense to me, perhaps it is a logic beyond my understanding but how could we(if you belive in any sort of creation theory) create ourselves? I can not believe that there is balance between good and evil, now forgive me for sounding pessimistic but I do belive that humans are evil by nature. Of course that goes back to whether you believe in evil or not.
I think my thoughts are digressing so I ;ll have to see what else you say before makihgn any comments bacuse I don't really know what you believe, but all I want to say why is it so hard for people to belive something has been proven in many ways (the code being just the most recent) and yet people beleive in evolution with SO little facts.
Too me it is way too easy to think yes, as long as I believe in some sort of god (force, essence) whatever that doesn't really affect my life but I know exists I will have a good afterlife (next-life, again whatever) then I can live the way I feel fit because after all "I am god and can do what I want, plus there is no hell for me so that's nice isn't it?"...I'm rambling....sorry.

"o trespass sweetly urged give me my sin again"

Ronin57
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posted 04-19-99 12:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

hey acrobat:
I was just wondering if your handle comes form this at all
"and I must be an acrobat, to talk like this and act like that"
- u2 (Acrobat)

MatthewDay
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posted 04-19-99 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Another interesting parallel...

Remember when Morpheous is in The Matrix and they are trying to break him down - One of the agents comments why isn't it working? Then in the real world we see that Tank and the others are wetting his face with a towel and talking to him. This is symbolizing what I believe to be the power of prayer. I think the only thing that got Morpheous through everything were the "prayers." Let me know what you think...

Remember Ephisians 6 tells us we are fighting against principalities and powers unseen!

In His Service.

Ronin57
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posted 04-19-99 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

YEAH! 3 IN ONE day..oops caps lock..doh!

I was thinking somehthing about the Trinity and the ccharacter types in the Matrix. now I don't neccesarily bel;ieve this was intentional but I thought I'd just throw this out.
Morpheous - God the Father
Neo - Jesus Christ (the son and what started this thread in the first place)
Trinity - The Holy Spirit (she is the one that really made me think about it. Mostly because though the Holy spirit is always referred to as male in the book, he still has a lot of "feminine" attributes such as the comforter, sustainer and such, plus her name made me think about it. I'm sure there is more to this so if anyone has any more thoughts on it I'd be appreciative.

"o trespass sweetly urged, give me my sin again"

Trin3
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posted 04-19-99 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trin3     

Thank you, thank you, thank you MatthewDay for getting back on track. Are we talking about the Matrix as a Messiah Movie in here or about saving our souls. Don't get me wrong. I totally agree with what 12321 and Acrobat are saying (I am definatly a believer and am thankful for it!), but where is the interesting parallel-discussion that drew me to this site? I don't mind talking religion, but let's pull it back toward the Matrix!

Ronin57
Your comments ("why is it so hard to believe") are exactly what the movie is exploring. It's so hard to believe because it is not logical. Evolution is logical. It makes sense because it fits into the rules that we live by. (Again----don't get me wrong. I think evolution fits in perfectly with a belief in God----but now I'm off track!)
The Matrix is about believing BEYOND those rules.

MatthewDay
Ooooo. I think your right on the Morpheus-prayer thing. Prayer as a weopon against evil. I like that!

Another small parallel that I don't think has been brought up....Apoc
Apocalypse = Revelations

Ronin57
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posted 04-19-99 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

you guys might find some irony in this, at the begining of my last post I wrote "yeah! three in one day!" I meant how many times I posted, but as I think mike wrote "coincidence is one of the languages of God"

"o trespass sweetly uurged give me my sin again"

cecilc
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posted 04-19-99 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Hey, Sampson,...
Regarding your last post...
We are all creative expressions of God, I agree with that - we are all created beings. In fact, EVERYTHING was created by God! Even Satan was a CREATED being (a lot of people forget that), so he is NOT a god or in any way equal to God. But this world is Satan's playground since this is where God banished him to - and Satan plays around with us quite a bit. Part of that playing around is to convince some people that God is responsible for the strife, enmity, war, greed, hate, etc. that goes on here - when in actuality it's Satan's doing! It's just deflection on his part to try to shift the blame! A classic act of someone who's guilty trying to point the finger at someone else! You know,...God TRIED to provide man with an evil and sin free place way back when,...but man CHOSE to sin. Free will and all that, you understand. That hasn't changed - we still have freedom to choose. God can show you what you need to see, He can get you to hear what you need to hear, He can lead you to the door - but YOU have to open it!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

cecilc
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posted 04-19-99 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

Ronin557,...
look back at acrobat's post of 4/18 at 5:32 PM regarding the "Trinity" aspect. She makes some good points there.

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

Ronin57
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posted 04-19-99 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

you guys might find some irony in this, at the begining of my last post I wrote "yeah! three in one day!" I meant how many times I posted, but as I think mike wrote "coincidence is one of the languages of God"

"o trespass sweetly uurged give me my sin again"

Ronin57
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posted 04-19-99 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

you guys might find some irony in this, at the begining of my last post I wrote "yeah! three in one day!" I meant how many times I posted, but as I think mike wrote "coincidence is one of the languages of God"

"o trespass sweetly uurged give me my sin again"

12321
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posted 04-19-99 12:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Well done MatthewDay and Trin3: Sorry for swerving all over the road.

MatthewDay: Found a few of these last night: “...by the washing with water through the word.” [Ephesians 6:26] Made a few notes to myself about prayer and the Word being compared to water. Thanks for showing me the connection. You just hit a metaphoric grand slam.

Trin3: I was thinking Apoc = epoch, but I think you’re right.

Good to be back on track.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Ronin57
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posted 04-19-99 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Trin3:

hey there, forgive me if I offended in any way, you're right though in siome ways, actually my old math teacher was one who believed in both Christiantiy and the big bang and evolution. I personally don't think they can work together but that's just me. About the logic thing it does kind of go back to my post about a week or so ago, and you are right about it.
I was just frustrated and wasn't thinking straight and in doing so I sorta contradicted myself, but hey that's what I'm trying to do here, figure things out (aren't we all?).
p.s. my browser screwed up and ended up posting that last message 3 times....hmm...another coincidence? sorry.

"o trespass sweetly urged give me my sin again"

MatthewDay
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posted 04-19-99 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

Looks like this movie is creating some debate and curiosity - just shows God is using it for His glory! The intriguing
parallels in the movie may reach someone for Christ where traditional witnessing has failed!! AWESOME!!

Go Light Your World,

Matt

cecilc
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posted 04-19-99 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

MatthewDay,...
You are SO on target with your post about this movie reaching people for Christ! I can personally attest (from the e-mails I've gotten since I started this topic and the web page) to an increased AWARENESS of Christ once the parallels are realized. Mind you, I'm no theologian - in fact, I've had to call on pastors and ministers to answer some of the questions I've gotten via e-mail. But the witnessing part,...oh, man. I fell like Christ has just been resurrected and He came to MY house first!!!!!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

cecilc
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posted 04-19-99 02:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

MatthewDay,...
You are SO on target with your post about this movie reaching people for Christ! I can personally attest (from the e-mails I've gotten since I started this topic and the web page) to an increased AWARENESS of Christ once the parallels are realized. Mind you, I'm no theologian - in fact, I've had to call on pastors and ministers to answer some of the questions I've gotten via e-mail. But the witnessing part,...oh, man. I fell like Christ has just been resurrected and He came to MY house first!!!!!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

MatthewDay
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posted 04-19-99 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

"There is no spoon!"

Neo learned how to "bend" the rules in The Matrix... Jesus also was a rule "bender!" There are so many examples that come to mind... one that sticks out the most is when Jesus walked on water!!! There are so many others...

Jesus - He bent the rules!! This could be a bumper sticker!! )

cecilc
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posted 04-19-99 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

MatthewDay,...
You are SO on target with your post about this movie reaching people for Christ! I can personally attest (from the e-mails I've gotten since I started this topic and the web page) to an increased AWARENESS of Christ once the parallels are realized. Mind you, I'm no theologian - in fact, I've had to call on pastors and ministers to answer some of the questions I've gotten via e-mail. But the witnessing part,...oh, man. I fell like Christ has just been resurrected and He came to MY house first!!!!!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

MatthewDay
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posted 04-19-99 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     

"There is no spoon!"

Neo learned how to "bend" the rules in The Matrix... Jesus also was a rule "bender!" There are so many examples that come to mind... one that sticks out the most is when Jesus walked on water!!! There are so many others...

Jesus - He bent the rules!! This could be a bumper sticker!! )

cecilc
Member
posted 04-19-99 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cecilc   Click Here to Email cecilc     

OK, gang,...
Posting is getting to be a REAL chore here. Let's start a new topic based on this one called The Matrix as Messiah Movie Part II (original, huh?). Hopefully, this will speed up the postings. Hey, everybody,...REMEMBER WHERE WE PARKED!

------------------
Reach me at:
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/mission/81 "The Matrix as Messiah" web page
cecilc@mindspring.com

MatthewDay
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posted 04-19-99 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewDay   Click Here to Email MatthewDay     


cecilc, thank you so much for listening to the Holy Spirit and creating this thread. God is at work in a mighty way!!! Peace!

12321
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posted 04-19-99 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Matt: [and I’m not disagreeing, just amplifying] In “The Last Temptation of Christ,” there’s a scene where Jesus is asked if God changed his mind [re: the message to turn the other cheek rather than seeking an eye for an eye] and Jesus replies, “No. He just felt like your hearts were ready for more.”

Maybe Neo was actually unbending the rules to conquer illusion... to establish that new order.

[hmm... this sounded a lot better before I put it into words]

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com

Sampson
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posted 04-20-99 08:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

Acrobat
I have seen wonders and when you see some of these you will know why I don't agree with some of your views.
The name thing is funny yes. My real name is biblical also... hmmm My sisters name is Ananda... This is also a very spiritual name. All very good names and I should honour their history and i do.

The bible is like hard line brodcast from outside the matrix. Yes it will have lots of information encoded, but it is still in the matrix and easy to misentupret. Also been subject to manipulation by the AI.

Creation is happening all the time. God created the heavens and the earth...
So where was god before that can we be there?


Ronin 57
God in general is beyond any intelectual understanding. John 4:48 says this
I don't believe humans are fundamentally evil, evil and good are choices.
The Bible isn't fundamentally evil. You all seem to agree. You would likely say Hitler was fundamentally evil though. So how come more people have died in the name of the bible than in the name of hitler. You can say they where all important holly wars. What of the crusaides then. Sounds like some kind of ethnic cleansing ploy. So is the bible fundamentally evil? No and people aren't either.

Evolution VS creation is a diversion...
Phylosiphy VS phylosiphy
that stuff starts wars. A little verbal war like this one... so we shouldn't stike at eachother here sorry if i have


Cecilc
God created Satan, Satan is evil yada yada... You say god nor man is responsible for evil just Satan Clause. He brings it to you all wrapped up and stuff it in your chimney. I disagree...
If i make a bomb and leave it somewhere and then you come and blow it up bye mistake killing many. Am i responsible??? God made a bomb called Satan is what u say in a way.
Satan does this God does that. Take some responsibility for yourself don't be that victim!
When you open that door you can't your good and evil judgement with you. You will crap out that apple. And as Neo did you wil be reborn, ego will have to die and release you so you can see the code around you instead of the illusion.

Jesus was an incredible bender. So much so that we still see his bent spoons sitting around today.

Sampson for free mind

Ronin57
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posted 04-20-99 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

Hey Samson,

Don't worry about us starting a war, I have no hard feelings against you. Everyone has a right to their opinions or beliefs, but there is nothing wrong with a thirst for knowledge or wisdom or trying to show others what you've found, if they don't follow your path because they beleive something diffenret than there is not much you can do. But I'm a pacifist (generally) so don't worry about the whole war thing.

As far as the basically evil thing, I believe what the bible says about this, mostly because that is how I try to live my life, by it's guidelines. In Romans it says ALL (emphasis mine) have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Obviously I can only speak for myself but when I look into myself I see greed, lust, violent thoughts (that's why I became a pacifist). Now those who know me would say I am a good person, in fact the few freinds who know me well are surprised to find that I screw up (I know this sounds REALLY pious, it's just the way I was raised) BUT I KNOW I HAVE THESE desires, and likek I said I can't speak for anyone else but I believe all people do. Hitler was no more born evil than I was. people today don't like the idea that we might be born with evil desires, it bothers them, people like to live carefree and complacent.

Now it comes down to your definition of evil but I go by the Book and in doing my best to follow it I find it frees me from those desires, I fail, I fall but I know I am lifted up again, without the burden of guilt. My life is free because of the love I've found in that book, it is not something easily described or defined, our logic has a tough time describing it (though if you want a solid logical explanation I suggest reading C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity). Well I'll get off my box of aloe vera now.

"Every time she sneezes I believe it's love...I'm not ready for this sort of thing"

Ronin57
Member
posted 04-20-99 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin57   Click Here to Email Ronin57     

I thought I'd a add acouple more things though, mostly because posting one really long message gets frustrating, even with a fast connection.

As far as the where was God bit, he was ALWAYS there, before you were creted I AM he said, that is his name I AM. If you think about this it is the only way it can make sense, If you think about creation o even a BB theory soemthing had to start it, it would just keep going back and back and back.
God created time, he exists outside of time therefor he is..at all points in history he has the right to say I AM.

Satan was not creted evil, he was created as the most beautiful powerful angel in heaven....he chose evil, therefore creating it, he was the first to sin. He turned himself into that bomb, and he set himself off. We do have to take responsibility for our own sin though, it is ultimately our choice, becuause there is no temptation we cannot handle with God's help.

You bring up the crusades, I beleive that was ethnic clensing, and wrong and not condoned by the Bible, I beleive God cried when he saw what we were doing. Do you know that in recent years groups of Christians of all denominations have been visiting Islamic countries and apologizing, not really witness or trying to convert, simply apologizing? They have been well accpeted and a lot of wounds have been healed. There have been a lot of crimes committed in the name of God or the bible, but also in the name of other religions, people screw up, we try and justify our wars and causes by saying God told me to do it, well that's just stupid. One thing you might find interesting is that during the time of the crusades the common person wan't even allowed to read the Bible so you can see what kind of power a corrupt church would have, and they were very corrupt.

"Every man dies, not every man truly lives"

Sampson
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posted 04-20-99 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sampson   Click Here to Email Sampson     

Cool nice to see someone taking responsibility.

So that I Am is everywhere then?
If so tap in. I just don't agree with alot of the bible stuff it can be really convoluded. If the I Am is God in your eyes that is ok as long as you can find it you do better than most.

cu on daq flip side

Sampson says cut your hair and get a real job

12321
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posted 04-20-99 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12321   Click Here to Email 12321     

Ronin57 [re: post@04-20-99 11:46 AM]: Beautiful.

------------------
mike skocko
http://www.ix625.com